pandy in book 2

[marcuzi]

whats the word on using pandy with stuff from the new book?
insiduous madness seems good of course but theres loads more things
like coppelius, lelu and lilitu (both woes) etc
if I recall even stitched together can make some wp duels
pandy definitely seems to have not many models at the mo that she can use
the babies and sorrows is kind of it
oh and teddy but he's not specifically synergistic with pandy

[karn987]

The things from Book 2 that work well with Pandora:

Lelu & Lilitu
Stitched Together
Insidious Madness (Epic with pandora)
Alps
Coppelius

The word on all of them is death danger and painful =). They all work very very well with her with Madness leading the pack for usefullness with her and Lilitu coming up a close second. After that Alps, Stitched Together, and Coppelius are pretty much tied for a close third.

[marcuzi]

sweet, plenty of good stuff then
any suggestions at a good build with newer stuff added?
I'm currently running 3 sorrows, kade and candy at 25 ss because I haven't gotten round to planning how I'm gonna paint my teddy

[MrNybbles]

You're forgetting about the Arcanist Mercenary Performer and Mannequin which Pandora can recruit (though for an extra 2 Soulstones thanks to the Performer's High Class).

I'm not kidding!

No really, the performer is about 99 and 44/100 pure willpower duels! Remember, Poison Ring can use Wp instead of Cb which technically makes her melee attack a Wp duel! All her spells are Wp, Irresistible is Wp, and Mesmerizing is Wp.

If you can track down the Showgirl Tactica (http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=15883) there are a couple of sections that mention this stuff.

[karn987]

You're forgetting about the Arcanist Mercenary Performer and Mannequin which Pandora can recruit (though for an extra 2 Soulstones thanks to the Performer's High Class).

I'm not kidding!

No really, the performer is about 99 and 44/100 pure willpower duels! Remember, Poison Ring can use Wp instead of Cb which technically makes her melee attack a Wp duel! All her spells are Wp, Irresistible is Wp, and Mesmerizing is Wp.

If you can track down the Showgirl Tactica (http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=15883) there are a couple of sections that mention this stuff.

Very true. I didnt mention them because they are not Neverborn models. Im still on the fence to how much they are worth and if they are actually worth their high cost. It's very hard to beat Madness and Lilitu for her.

[marcuzi]

had not noticed that performer and mannequin are takeable by pandy
they seem good for her as well!
shouldn't be hard to convert a performer to suit the crew and the mannequin is pretty much there
just needs to look old and broken

[Natty]

Even after looking at the new models I still maintain that Pandora with the Doppelganger is enough Wp duels. Her list needs physical damage to balance it out and take down certain targets with high Wp.

Maybe add in one of those insidious madnesses. They look good for 4 points.

[Zethal]

Don't neglect Nekima either. -2 Wp 6" aura and can provide a lot of the physical damage if thats something your looking for in a Pandy crew like Natty is. Then of course there is the obvious synergy with Lilitu if you plan on taking her. She even makes it possible for Lilitu to be taken without Lelu as with the Regen 1 she can regain all the Wds she looses for being fielded alone.

[Natty]

I can see taking the Lelu/Lilitu pair as far as winning the game goes, but lets change this discussion up a bit and talk about the sanity of your opponent:

Pandora is annoying to play against and add onto that a group of models that companion each other.

Basically your opponent is doing one of two things: #1: Sitting through a Pandora activation, which no one wants to do or #2: Sitting through a chain activation of your Lelu/Lilitu while you do a slew of activations all at once.

I had this trouble in a few games with the Silurids. My opponent would sit there forever while I activated all my models at once, or he would sit there forever while I ninja hopped around the board with Pandora taking four-hundred (0) actions and causing a billion tests.

For the sanity of your opponents don't take Pandora AND Lelu/Lilitu/Silurids!!! THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!! THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!!

[Natty]

Oh, and Nekima looks fun with Pandora, but it would have to be a high point cost game because you ALWAYS want the doppelganger with Pandora and then you want at least a few tots with Nekima and add on that you want to start with max soulstones on Pandora, always, so:

Nekima 13
Doppelganger 8

That's already 21 points.

Nekima + Pandora would probably be good in a 35 point game though...

[MrNybbles]

Even after looking at the new models I still maintain that Pandora with the Doppelganger is enough Wp duels. Her list needs physical damage to balance it out and take down certain targets with high Wp.

Maybe add in one of those insidious madnesses. They look good for 4 points.

Well, let's compare. Both the Doppelganger and Performer and Mannequin cost 8ss for Pandora to recruit. (The Doppelganger is Rare 1 though it's not really a big limit).

The Doppelganger can mimic Pacify or Incite and inflict 1 Wd on each enemy model. Performer & Mannequin can inflict up to 4 Wp duels together targeting one model. With Sorrows around this can be very devastating either way. Do you want to damage all of the models a little or one model a lot?

However, with the Doppelganger you can't keep casting it for free if your opponent manages to win the resist duel.

The Performer is not only Wp Duels but also a debuffer. Her Mesmerizing is a Wp Duel that will inflict Slow if successful. Seduction is also a Wp Duel and causes the opponents resist and defense flips to get :-fate :-fate. With the Mannequin's Beautiful Cloths these two can attempt up to 4 Wp Duels regardless of if the enemy resists them or not.

Pandora, Hooded Rider (8ss), Performer and Mannequin (8ss), and three Sorrows (3ss each) would run 25ss. It has debuffing, Wp Duels, and a decent Damage Dealer.

I think people familiar with Pandora won't expect the additional debuffing that benefit both the Hooded Rider's attacks and Performer and Manequin's Wp Duels. You would have only 3 non-insignificant models so for some games this would not be a good list.

[marcuzi]

I think the performer/mannequin looks sick for pandy
I'm not sold on the need for a heavy hitter eg. teddy or hooded rider however, having not thought kade to be as effective as I've heard

[MrNybbles]

Different crews can work better with different Strategies and Schemes. Be flexible.

You could go with a Performer & Mannequin and a Doppelganger, Two Performers and Mannequins, or a Performer & Mannequin and Hooded Rider, or something completely different. How do you want to play?

[tadaka]

Whats so great about dop with pandora?

[karn987]

Pandora has many abilities which do not require any sort of duel to be effective. Mainly her The Box Opens and Emotional Trauma. The Doppelganger Mimicing these abilities effectively increases the range of coverage of these effects and in the case of Emotional Trauma, doubles the wounds models would take when they fail a Wp duel near them. As already know, Pandora is death by a thousand cuts type master. Just adding another long range effect that causes Wds when you fail a WP duel, effectively doubles Pandora's power.

Think about it, already people have a hard time just over-coming Pandora's wd causing effect and maybe a Sorrow or two now that Link is restored. Add in the Doppelganger Mimicing Emotional Trauma and you double the damage being taken per Wp duel. Its huge.

Also Pandora has a number of spells which are excellent in the truest sense of the word. Even though the Doppelganger doesn't have a high Ca, she can still pull them off so that can be another source of nastiness coming in besides Pandora and her totem. Thats 3 models that can use those spells of her, its nasty.

Then their comes Pacify and Incite which the Doppelganger will honestly, rarely use but it can still provide some coverage for those effects. Pandora doesn't always hit everyone with them, so this is another possible source of Wp duels.

Thats just with the Doppelganger Mimicing Pandora. Pandora's crew and your opponents crew will often have a large number of tasty abilities to Mimic. For example, lets say you have Teddy and Kade, Mimic Teddy's Teath and Kade's melee expert and nastiness ensues.

Also there is perhaps my favorite ability from the Doppelganger, the negative flips on Init duels. Thats HUGE for Pandora because she wants to go first EVERY turn of the game. She needs to set up her web of effects before the enemy has a chance to get at her or take out a strong model before it get's a chance to react. Think about the ever annoying Coryphe? You get the first action, Pandora can wipe it out like nothing. But if it gets to activate, it becomes a much bigger pain in the butt to put down.

But really, the Doppelganger's use is only limited by your imagination and creativity.

[Natty]

Karn has got it. I honestly didn't even bother posting the uses for the doppelganger because I assumed everyone knew it was the best model ever for Pandora.

Half the time I just copy emotional trauma, a nice defense or defensive ability, go into defensive stance, and walk right into the middle of their guys. The doppelganger is worth it's weight in sorrows and then some. I mean, the sorrows can't decide to switch it up and copy Teddy's damage and the Cerebus' melee master and then destroy whatever is in front of it.

The Doppelganger is by far a must have for Pandora. I can't even see anyone arguing for not using it. If I was playing a 10 soulstone game, I'd take the Doppelganger as my only minion.

I will admit that the Doppelganger is kind of a hard to use minion, and Pandora is a hard to use master, but once you get the hang of them together they are an almost unbeatable combo that just uses the rest of your minions for support.

If it wasn't for having to win by victory points and having limited turns, the Doppelganger and Pandora could probably wipe out a lot of 25 point crews + master by themselves.

[marcuzi]

so, dop seems strong!
I was unaware that it could copy emotional trauma but that takes it to a whole new level
I'm definitely gonna have to try one of these out
the fact that its got a kick-ass model helps as well
btw, how often do you guys bother to take pandy's totem?

[tadaka]

I can see your point. My exp with her is all ways the same. Her downside is her base abilities suck. So basicly she takes x ability and you just hit her with y. Not that she cant be good I just dont see her last all that long most games. I never found pandora to be all that tough but perhaps im just not running in to the right people on the other end.

[Natty]

so, dop seems strong!
I was unaware that it could copy emotional trauma but that takes it to a whole new level
I'm definitely gonna have to try one of these out
the fact that its got a kick-ass model helps as well
btw, how often do you guys bother to take pandy's totem?

I always take Pandora's totem even though it almost never does anything. The reason is that it is a 7 defense model for 2 points, and it is a spirit taking half damage to boot. I mainly use it as a distraction that they have to target and waste AP on. They can't really ignore it, and it is one of the hardest totems to kill.

The other use for the totem, which I try to avoid, is to make your own guys go last, and have a sudo-alpha strike, then have the doppelganger let you go first again the next turn. It works great with companioning Silurids (honestly it works too good and makes you do so many actions without your opponent doing anything it makes the game not very fun).