Kirai in a Brawl

[Ratty]

I'm very new at Malifaux and I've currently just started on my first crew, based off Kirai

So far I have

the boxed set
1 clam of Seishin, and I'm sculpting from scratch another 2
1 clam of Gaki
A proxy for the Lost Love.

I'm already starting to think ahead to what to add next, I probably need a few more Gaki and when the Geisha Harpies come out I'm definitely going to get 1 or 2 of them.

Now when we get to Brawl sized games I'm having a bit of trouble seeing which way this crew will go. Kirai doesn't seem to have a lot of synergy with the other resurrectionists, none of her models generate corpse counters and the Gaki in fact feed off them, this is going to leave any Master starved for flesh to work with.

Part of me is wondering if it would be best to not take a second master and take Hamelin the Plagued and Nix with the extra soulstones and then beef up on the inititial spirits.

Any ideas?

[Werecat]

The hanged seem to be pretty decent with her. But you could always throw in Molly as your second master. Or Seamus, as he won't feel the sting of less corpses like the other two resers would.

[dakrulz55]

also the good Douglas doesnt need that many cc, hes also good by himself so you dont need to build entirely around him, so you can mainly emphisise on kirais crew.

[shekbo]

Here's what you do.

Kirai and Nicodem, and make sure you get a datsue-ba and five canines.

No seshin to start off with. If you want to make this trick easiest, buy Hamelin the ratcatcher as a mercenary and Nix the bull terrier.

When you set up, position the canines in a ring around datsue, within 8" of Kirai, and optimally also within 6" of Nicodem. First activation, if you have Nix, use 0 Instinctual behavior on Datsue. Second activation (or first if you don't have Nix) Datsue uses harvest sinners, and you cheat down the dogs' flips. If you used Nix, maybe one survives. If you didn't, you managed to kill maybe 2 and 3 are injured severely.

Anyway, what that will boil down to is one corpse, one seishin for each dog.

Lack of synergy, you say? Consider this: Mindless zombies get up for a 0 action, are easily killable with your own attacks, and when killed produce a corpse and a seishin. That means unlimited seishin.

Also, Datsue is a great thing to have. Just her using weigh sins on your unfortunate dogs and mindless zombies is enough to summon lots of gaki or even onryo, while Nic and Kirai pump them out themselves. She can also heal kirai when she's hurt and in the spirit world.

[Dire Hoarcat Snuggler]

Shekbo, you are a beast! These are my two favorite masters for Res' and I will be stealing your ideas to try out!

~J~

[shekbo]

So I've given lists like this a couple tries, and I'm considering even replacing the whole hamelin-dog-datsue thing with sebastian (for bloody harvesting) and mortimer (for corpse digging fun). I don't remember exactly how much damage bloody harvest does, is it four? Because if it is it's perfect. And it doesn't do anything weird like make them body parts, right?

Because if you could do that, theoretically, you'd have a factory of corpses and seishin. Essentially, Mortimer would activate first and attempt to exhume, then Nicodem would make corpses into mindless zombies and if he can, summon undead critters (out of sebastian's harvesting aura) then kirai would go, burning down to one seishin (unless it was the first turn, in which case Sebastian would go before her) and targeting one of the five mindless zombies with spirit food. Then sebastian would go, turning all five mindless zombies into five corpses, four seishin and one gaki.

In this turn sequence, there's a possibility for 3 summons with Nicodem (this is theorizing that you have the absolute optimal flips and or card cheats) as well as 2 summons with Kirai plus one absorb spirit to get some extra cards, and one free gaki with Sebastian's little fun.

Per turn.

As many turns as you want.

And that's... 23 points of models. For the factory. 25 if you include lost love. If we assume that you have some other models at the start to hold off your opponent while the factory supports them...

Damn.

daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn.

[alemon]

Well, this is gonna be annoying. : P

[Ratty]

Can you get the Gaki creation trigger, when creating the Corpse and Seishin, or does equivalence come into it?

[jmp_mydog]

Can you get the Gaki creation trigger, when creating the Corpse and Seishin, or does equivalence come into it?

I believe creating a Gaki comes from a spell, trigger or another source so equivalency shouldn't come into play.

I believe the last thing stated in that wall of text was equivalency comes into play from static effects.

[dakrulz55]

i think it would be awsome to disect your seshin after activating sheshin becon to get free bodypart tokens to summon stuffs. also makin a rogue necro and then possably makin it a spirit is a scarry thought, but i know its goin to ba a rare case for that because your fightin over crows like mad with that list.

[Ratty]

Just had my first game of Malifaux. 15ss against pandora

Kirai
2 Seishin
2 Onyro

It was a horrific slaughter, The only model that got killed on my side was Kirai who got WP dueled to death by Pandora, however by that point all he had Kade on 1 wound and Pandora so Ikyro Wailing screamed Kade as he ran away and then legged it straight for Pandora. Ikyro with the +2 combat from Seinshin is brutal. Altogether really enjoyed the game, and the look of horror on my opponents face the first turn where spirits were flying all over the place swapping locations. Ikyro managed a first turn kill easily.

Now all I have to do is paint tonnes of models and get more Gaki made. It's taken me almost 2 weeks to put them together and construct the bases, stupid bamboo stalks.

[Ratty]

My major mistake was not just swarming Pandora turn 2, I didn't realise how easy it would be to take her down, at the worse it would have striped the opponent of soul stones.

[shekbo]

Um, no, via equivalency you can only get "one summoned model from any source." So you'd choose the Gaki, obviously. I thought I'd mentioned that.

I ran a test of this army by the way. OH my god did it work well. You're getting three, four models hitting the board per turn, plus there's no reason for Kirai not to absorb a seishin every turn, so +2 cards and 2 wounds healed for her. The nastiest thing was all the onryos flying around (you get a lot of them) and their haunt abilities. My opponent, by the end of the game, had 3 models left, and they all had slow from killing an onryo (played against the Viks. Survivors were one Vik, Taelor and one Ronin. I had 54 points of models at the end of the game, and it was a 45 point brawl.)

[quotemyname]

I... need to go buy kirai...*runs off*

Dude seriously, this is NASTY. I have an extensive collection of Rez minions because I'm a Nic player, but this is exactly the type of Brawl support I've been looking for for him.

I believe someone's already said it, but, DAAAAAAAAAAMN!

[Ratty]

So how many hundreds of summoning models do I have to paint for this list?

7 or so Seinshin
5 Gaki
2 Onyro
10 zombies
5 zombie dogs
2 Flesh Golems
1 big necromantic thing.

roughly?

+ characters

[jmp_mydog]

So how many hundreds of summoning models do I have to paint for this list?

7 or so Seinshin
5 Gaki
2 Onyro
10 zombies
5 zombie dogs
2 Flesh Golems
1 big necromantic thing.

roughly?

+ characters


Shikome were on the release schedule as well. Great support for Kirai.

[Ratty]

Shikome were on the release schedule as well. Great support for Kirai.

yeah December, I want at least 1 of them

[jmp_mydog]

I've found they work really good in pairs, with the night terrors as support.

Been running a fun list with Seamus, 2 Shikome, 2 night terrors, an onryo, gaki and the grave spirit. Against living models your opponent will have a tough time dealing with it.

[Ratty]

http://www.fantization.com/ProductImages/okko/ASMOKM15US.jpg

I'm quite tempted to get hold of some Okko miniatures Penaggollanto use as Night Terrors, they would really work with the look of the crew.

[shekbo]

Well, you'll only ever need 5 seishin (they're rare five) and Shikome are rare two (a fact that I learned with sadness during my last game, when my opponent pointed out that I had to stop summoning them at some point.)

What I have for summoning with my massive list is

2 gaki (i proxy for more if I need them, but I never summon them specifically and they die fast)
6 mindless zombies (be prepared to juggle these, they rarely stay on the table a whole turn)
2 shikome (definitely. All those seishin to burn? Always have 2 on the board.)
2 onryo (though you might want another pack. They're handy)
Ikiryo (obvious. you kind of want to keep her on the board as much as you can.)
1 hanged (I started with him. He worked well.)
assorted zombies for Nicodem to summon. I wouldn't go for the flesh constructs, they sap your hand, and you need a big hand. Even with 8 cards a turn (absorbing one spirit a turn) I found myself burning every card. The rogue necro... Maybe. for demoralizing your opponent and making it clear that yeah, you can summon whatever you want and they can't do anything about it.
5 dogs. If you don't already have the models, don't bother buying them for this list, they die in the first turn. The first activation. And you're not gonna summon them.
Sebastian and Mortimer, fairly vital to the list as a whole.
And obviously, kirai and Nicodem.

So yeah, this strategy requires a ton of models to play. But if you're fielding Nicodem and Kirai, odds are you've got a pretty good summoning pool already, and pretty much everything can be proxied if you want it to be.

[Wodschow]

They're Rare 5 so you can take 10 Seishin in a brawl. :)

I feel Brawls are getting a little out of control though with super synergy between certain masters.

[Ratty]

Yeah that's why I said 7, as you can easily make 5 in a turn and want to keep a few at the end of the turn in case you don't get first activation.

[shekbo]

Wait. TEN? That multiplies the ridiculous factor by like a million! Ten to start with, and ten beautiful corpses... That's 20 points of doggies though. Wow. Hmm.. maybe start with five, and as you said, work your way up. I'll have to tweak more to find the optimal number.

And that means... four shikome.

Four shikome... Beautiful. Beautiful.

[HopelessHeretic]

Two things really quick. You cannot weigh sins on a friendly model since it is target enemy model. And kirais summons are not affected by rule of equivalencey since they are placed and not summoned.
-Heretic

[Ratty]

It says weigh sins targets non-spirit model, nothing is mentioned at all about friendly or enemy model. However it does say place not summon, which is cool.

[Svenn]

The hanged seem to be pretty decent with her. But you could always throw in Molly as your second master. Or Seamus, as he won't feel the sting of less corpses like the other two resers would.

Henchman can't be second masters, but you could take her as a Henchman.

You could also just not take a second master and take the bonus soulstones.

[HopelessHeretic]

Sorry I was thinking of Spirit Food which is target enemy. But this means you could spirit food a mindless zombie and then use weigh sins on it and get 3 spirits plus a corpse counter.
-Heretic

[Ratty]

Sorry I was thinking of Spirit Food which is target enemy. But this means you could spirit food a mindless zombie and then use weigh sins on it and get 3 spirits plus a corpse counter.
-Heretic

Nope, the rule of Equivilency means that you can only summon 1 model off the death or sacrifice of a model. So you can get 1 Gaki from either spirit food or Weigh Sin as both count as Summons, you get 1 corpse counter and get 1 Seishin as Seishin are placed not summoned.

[shekbo]

Ah, but I think because of the Mindless zombies' neutral ability they don't count as friendly to you. So you could spirit food and weigh sins to get some gakis up in the house for free! (hint. Do that every single turn.)

Update: this list is an instant win for escape and survive if you're smart at using all your summoned models as a meat wall. All those gaki come in handy.

[TheGirl333]

So I just started Malifaux. I have Lady J as my crew now (I like their straight play), but I really like Kirai's fluff but hesitant to buy the crew...so pros, cons, thoughts? Oh p.s. I haven't played miniatures since I sold my Eldar army over a year ago.

[quotemyname]

Kirai has a great tactica thread up in the ressurectionist forum. Go check it out. This thread was specifically for a strategy to be used with her in a brawl.

Her box set is expensive, but from what I understand, it's pretty good out of the box.

[Ratty]

Kirai has a great tactica thread up in the ressurectionist forum. Go check it out. This thread was specifically for a strategy to be used with her in a brawl.

Her box set is expensive, but from what I understand, it's pretty good out of the box.

I would disagree.. I believe it's unplayable out of the box. 1 Seishin just doesn't cut it, If you summon anything you have Kirai with no spirit shield. Without Shields she's a fragile a a porcelain flower. Also both Datsu-ba and Kirai auto-summon Gaki off some of their triggers and you get none in the box. This is one of Kirai's downsides.

I would suggest you need at least 1 clam shell of Gaki and one of Seishin to play sensibly with her. In the long run you probably want to boost this up to

2 Clams of Seishin
2-3 Clams of Gaki
1 Clam of Onryo
1-2 Clam of Geisha Harpies

I also like running hanged with her.

[quotemyname]

Thanks for the suggestions. I've been looking at different models for her and wondering what type of support she would need.

[tadaka]

I would agree with rat on this one the out of the box crew is pritty bad for her. Buy more gaki and seishin and you have a playable crew.

[CrouchingMoose]

I'm summoning the undead off of the mindless zombies that sebastian can't kill correct?

[hippieshopper]

I'm summoning the undead off of the mindless zombies that sebastian can't kill correct?

I apologize in advance but I don't exactly follow what you're saying.

If you mean Nico summoning off of a Mindless Zombie, you can do that because they are treated as walking Corpse Counters.

[Ratty]

A little question, it's very silly, but can Kirai take the Dreamer as the second master in a brawl, he is a spirit. My guess is if you do the only Nightmares you would be able to take would be Day Dreams, Night Terrors and Insidious Madness. As the Dreamer doesn't have anything about being able to take taking Nightmares from any faction and Ressurectionists would be your faction so you couldn't take things like Alps and Stitches. But I think it might be an interesting crew to play.

[Wodschow]

I believe that you are correct in your assessment :)

It's also one of the fairly few ways to field the Dreamer with Night Terrors.

[Ratty]

With all the movement tricks of both masters it would be a crazy pair to play. Insiduous Madnesses and Night Terrors can be both buried and Swirling Spirited. Which means you could unbury a Night Terror in combat and then swap in Ikiryo into the fight.

[PM8K]

Wow, I was hoping to keep myself to focusing on only a couple factions...

But as I am now building a good amount of variety to back up kirai, I may want to buy the dreamer and night terrors for a brawl...would be a fun combo to try

This game is draining my wallet :D

[deadboy]

A little question, it's very silly, but can Kirai take the Dreamer as the second master in a brawl, he is a spirit.
Actually I don't believe you can. Kirai allows you to HIRE spirits from other factions but you don't hire masters. They are chosen before the hiring part. There may be a ruling elsewhere that contradicts this but I haven't seen it.

[Ratty]

In a Brawl you must hire two Masters from the same Faction, or are eligible to be included in your Crew. When a special rule allows you to hire a Master from another Faction, you may also select theat Master's Schemes when chooshing Schemes (p.70)

looks like you hire a Master, and if I have a Kirai crew spirits are eligible to be hired. However I'm not certain of this.

[deadboy]

If you look a little earlier on that same page it specifies:


In a Brawl, you must choose Masters to lead your Crew. At least one of these must belong to your chosen Faction, but both must be able to work with your Faction and/or Master. Then hire minions with soulstones ...

Kirai doesn't specify that she can work with other masters and the quoted text refers to hiring only after you've chosen your masters. Together our quotes make for a pretty ambiguous situation.

[Ratty]

But by this wouldn't allow C.Hoffman to take Ramos as his second Master which I know is allowed. C.Hoffman just says may hire Arcanist Constructs which Ramos is one off.

[Ratty]

Also I don't see how your quote effects anything. You choose Ressurectionists as your faction. And the Dreamer can work with my chosen Master as he's a spirit. The Master is definitely hired as it uses hire in almost every sentence.

[deadboy]

Hmmm, you may well be right. I had it in my head back during the discussion of the (at the time) soon to be released dreamer/LCB they specified you don't hire masters. Maybe I imagined that or misinterpretted what was said. Either way I can't find the post so I'm not sure. I guess if you DO hire masters you'd pick Kirai first then that would allow you to get the dreamer. It just seems wonky.

[Warpstone]

I would say yes you could use Kirai's special rule to get The Dreamer as your second Master.
But for hiring Minions as you would have selected Ressers as your faction you could only hire Resser minions and spirits from any faction. You would not be able to purchase Neverborn Nightmares.
Overall there are no clear cut rulings but from what I have read you do hire everything to create your crew.

[Ratty]

You could still hire Day dreams and Insidious Madnesses as they are both spirits as well as Nightmares. You are very limited, but it still could be fun to play.