Lets Talk Hooded Rider

[thaehl]

So lets get down to it, do you like him do you not?
He fills another mobile attacker role that the neverborn already have in spades, Teddy, Mature Neph., some will even argue Juju has this role in design, why do we need the rider (beside the looks)? Is he the slick sexy speed machine that packs the same punch as our Neph at 2SS cheaper?!?! What do you like about him? My favorite bits are his Passage of time: Night rules making him the shooty armies worst enemy. Even though Nine wounds seems low regen 1 makes him a bit easier to handle and Immune to Influance keeps him pretty safe. What are your thoughts, Is it worth it to take him in a neverborn crew after all of these new updates, Lilith might want to take a black blood shaman in the riders place, Zoraida might want some dolls, he causes no duels Pandora would like to see and since he is not a nightmare the Dreamer doesnt have a reason to hire him, where would you put him.
Thanks in advance for your imput, - thaehl

[Q'iq'el]

I think it's the question of getting somewhat different tools for the points.

For example a typical Lilith crew will have one Mature Neph on the table, as the bullet magnet, and one in reserves so that Young Nephilim can mature into it.

However Hooded Rider is in almost every aspect better than the Mature Neph you'd typically start with - a slightly better fighter (no paired weapon, but it has flurry), slightly more survivable, comparable speed (faster if there are not too many obstacles) and Immune to influence is pretty big considering low Wp of Lilith's crew.

It's also quite a nice counter to all the ranged crews Lilith has to worry about. Darkness means it can't be targeted with :ranged attacks. 50mm base with ht3 mean Lilith can hide completely behind it and probably toss in a Terror Tot or two too.

I personally think it makes the most sense to play him at Night and switch to Morning with Chase the sun as soon as it is ready to charge into melee combat. You get protection from shooting and then you get a tough fighter with good utility in melee.

I find Noon more appealing if the crew has the necessary synergies with the other models. With Nekima in the crew, that's up to 3 :masks in the Final Total, which gives the Rider the top damage of 8 - not bad at all, especially if you Flurry it on the head of opponent's master, but you have to consider it comes at 21 points.
Nekima is also capable of making Hooder Rider flying which makes it better than Mature Nephilim as your initial choice in every aspect. Clearly, that may be the best synergy this model has, making Noon->Night combination somewhat better than Night->Morning.


Either way, Lilith seems to be gravitating towards heavy elite combos. She used to be more of swarm of little devils type of master, with her doing the heavy lifting. Now it looks more like Lilith+Nekima+Hooded Rider+3 or 4 Terror Tots in 35 SS battle... and you use Nekima to Grow Tots early on, if needed. If not, the Tots grab the objectives and the big 3 tear the opposition apart.

Alternative to that is Lilu-Lelitu pair and if you take Nekima with them, you can't fit in more than 2 Tots (1 preferably, if you want these Soulstones), so the Nephilim side of the Lilith crew is practically gone. I'm also not convinced Lilu and Lelitu are the best for Lilith - they are slowish and seem to offer more utility than combat prowess. Of all that utility only the ability to remove Hard to Wound or Hard to Kill is helping Lilith directly and even then mostly against Resurrectionists.


To sum up... Hooded Rider + Nekima is IMHO the best Lilith gets out of the new book. It allows her to remain the brood mother and keep all the kids in the crew, while gaining solid anti-ranged option and multiple boosts from Nekima. On the top of that, it still remains a very fast and hard hitting crew.


Lilu and Lelitu are probably better option for other Neverborn masters but I don't know these masters well enough. For Lilith they seem situational.

So the last thing to discuss is why I think Nekima+Hooded Rider are better than Black Shaman. Black shaman is a model I'd take instead of Nekima if the game was 30 or 25 points. Sure, the synergy with Lilith and the Nephilim is there, but the model is unfortunately very slow. You basically have to take a Mature Neph for him to keep peace with Lilith and then your Neph is nothing more than a mount for the shaman (i.e. either you waste the Mature or the Shaman can keep up only initially). I think Black Shaman is pretty nice thing to have if you run Zoraida with Nephilim crew, because you gain support for the Nephilim that Lilith would normally provide and then some. If you take Hooded Rider, you don't really need many of the buffs the shaman gives.

[bigstupidfighter]

I personally don't believe the Hooded Rider has a place in a Nephilim crew, at least not on anything resembling a regular basis. Nekima makes it easy to grow Tots up by cannibalizing your own units, making Young or Mature way cheaper than they should be and thus pretty much outclassing other fast beats models. In bigger games BBS can be used to make this even easier, and don't forget Nekima makes Young Nephilim near her aoutomatically trigger Flay, putting their damage at the same as a Mature which can be a good thing in smaller games where you need more models for accomplishing objectives.

Lilitu as written now will simply eat many crews alive when paired with Nekima, basically anything that isn't good at crazy long-range charges (I'm looking at Lillith, Perdita w/ Papa Bomb, SPAs, probably a couple more I don't know about) will get eaten alive by them, and lelu provides all the melee support they need at the cost of a 3ss Tot and a 12+ cdard from your hand.

I know this is blasphemy, and I'm not speaking from experience, but maybe, just maybe, LCB could have some luck with this guy. After all he is fast and hard to hit from a distance, he could go in the direction LCB does not, he's sturdy enough to survive on his own, so he could be good for accomplishing/denying VPs since while LCB is very fast, he can't be in two places at once. Immune to Influence is a big turnoff for Pandy and Zoraida but then I hear tell that teddy gets played so why not this guy? It could really go either way with them.

[Q'iq'el]

I think that's because you put a lot of stress on the abilities and little on positioning.

Lilith crew is driven by positioning and positioning based synergies. The example of Hooded Rider with Darkness hiding Lilith behind him is that kind of synergy (paired up with Illusionary Forest it stops practically all ranged threats and even models which ignore special effects that block their sight, cannot ignore a model blocking LoS).

Lelu moves just 4 per AP. Lelitu is faster at 5", but she still won't be keeping pace with Lilith if she tries to cast anything. Same for Black Shaman.


I'm not saying it won't work. But the abilities on the character card are not the only factor here.

And if you take Nekima-Hooder Rider-3 or 4 Terror Tots, you don't lose any of the Nephilim-based synergies. You can grow these Tots into Young Nephilim almost at once, if you need to.


P.S. and you simply can't ignore the sheer killing power of that combo. If all 3 models stay in Nekima's pulse at the beginning of the turn, to get extra :masks to their Cb, we're looking at:

3~12 damage and 2x Bloody Fate from Nekima.
5~24 damage from Hooded Rider
3~18 damage and 3x Bloody Fate from Lilith (more if she's hitting a crowd with Whirling Death and some extra bonuses from the Wicked possible too)

+

whathever Tots, Young or Mature Nephilim may add. (3~12 damage per Tot; 4~21 damage from Young and 4~18 damage from Mature Nephilim, which as you can see is not in the same ballpark as Hooded Rider and does not provide as good shield from shooting either).

Even without Nephilim that's not only huge raw damage output, but almost full new Control Hand at the end of the whopping.

This amount of damage together with the extra Control Cards steadily coming in is far more like a Lilith crew in action to me than all them SM tricks Lilu and Lelitu excel at. :P

[AvatarForm]

Although all of the above are valid points, with the new fighting Indoors rules, the Mature Neph cannot use Flying. Hence, losing its special ability diving attack.

This is a good thread. I was considering this guy in my Pandora crew...

[Q'iq'el]

Although all of the above are valid points, with the new fighting Indoors rules, the Mature Neph cannot use Flying. Hence, losing its special ability diving attack.

Actually RAW they don't lose Flight ability at all. They cannot fly over walls and doors, but that's it. (Book 2 page 51).

That means they can still fly over obstacles, dangerous terrain (trapped floor etc?) and they can still do the Diving Attack if they want to charge.

(I choose to imagine the massive Mature Nephilim buzzing through the corridor, negotiating the corner and head-butting the model silly enough to think it can hide! :D)

Not to mention Diving Attack is a weird ability in that while it seems to be result of flying, it actually isn't based on ability to fly, but entirely stand-alone. If Zoraida, for example, Hexes the Flight away from a Young or Mature Nephilim, it will still be able to do the Diving Attack when it charges with no penalties (even lack of movement penalties is written into the Diving Attack rule and not dependent on ability to fly).

On the other hand, if you Hex away Diving Attack but leave the Flight, the model will need LoS to charge.




Uh oh I've just realized Nekima can't give Hooded Rider Flight or Nephilim Heart unless there's a Black Shaman in the crew to actually turn it into a Nephilim as well (and the effect isn't permanent).

I guess that combo isn't as good as I had hoped for. :sad2:


Hooded Raider is still good heavy-hitter/shield for Lilith. Just the damage output cannot be cranked up as high as I hoped. Night->Morning combo it is. Hmm.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Although all of the above are valid points, with the new fighting Indoors rules, the Mature Neph cannot use Flying. Hence, losing its special ability diving attack.Q'iq'el is right. Indoor does not stop flight, just the flying over walls. Had that one cleared up at my LGS during a tournament when everyone thought my crew was going to get hosed.

The Hooded Rider seems like a wildcard to me. He doesn't have any obvious synergy with any master but fills a need gap in all the master's list's when desired.

You won't see him in all the lists, but he will be seeing some good table time because what he brings is just so good.

Waiting to get him before I go through a good break down of him.

[Extinction Angel]

I actually don't like the Hooded rider as much in my typical Lilith crew because you can't Transposition him. He would work as a Mature Neph replacement, but Knock Aside and Diving Attack are very awesome and hard to give up.

And as our resident Resurrectionist player is fond of doing with the Dead Rider, he's not bad to use for Strategy/Schemes that involve capturing markers or getting into an oponents half or deployment zone.

Night is definitely the best way to start him out though, unless you know you can get close enough on T1 with a charge.

[thaehl]

Im liking the Night into Morning combo, especially with alps, drop some Alps on the opponent let the rider come up then hit them for min of three then four alps kicking in as the riders attack makes them slow, making min damage seven.

[AvatarForm]

So what was with the discussion in another thread about Flight not working between rooms and its effect on moves such as Diving Attack?

[Murphy'sLawyer]

So what was with the discussion in another thread about Flight not working between rooms and its effect on moves such as Diving Attack?What discussion? If you read pg. 51 of RP it says a model with flight or float may not pass over indoor walls. That is it. Nothing else.

So diving attack still works, just not over walls. Other models, terrain features and the likes are still open for diving attacks.

[AvatarForm]

So... Indoors his FLight is actually more of an Anime levitate?

[thaehl]

:focus:So about that Hooded Rider.... We have thoroughly discusses the indoor mobility of the mature Neph. the topic is the rider and what he is good for. If we could get back to that I feel all of us could benefit.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Well I think the Hooded Rider's greatest asset will be his ability to take a flank without much support. With the Night aspect he will be impossible to stop before he gets to you. And if his target is alone it will not be able to attack back after being struck. Flurry and that is three models unable to attack him.:vb_devil:

[Adran]

With the Night aspect he will be impossible to stop before he gets to you. And if his target is alone it will not be able to attack back after being struck. Flurry and that is three models unable to attack him.:vb_devil:

Flurry is three attacks on the same target

[Q'iq'el]

Well I think the Hooded Rider's greatest asset will be his ability to take a flank without much support. With the Night aspect he will be impossible to stop before he gets to you.

That is a bit of exaggeration. Ranged attacks is a big category but still limited. There are spells and abilities that could stop him in track despite Darkness (all without :ranged icon). Out of the top of my head Rigor Mortis (strangely enough Constructs are not immune to it) could stop him before he can charge Nicodem and both Override Edict and Disassemble could be a real problem, though both are fortunately short-ranged.


And if his target is alone it will not be able to attack back after being struck. Flurry and that is three models unable to attack him.:vb_devil:

Flurry is always against single target. It's a great master-killing ability though, damage output is huge and the opponent has to cheat/soulstone up to three times to avoid it completely, which is a big drain on resources.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Flurry is always against single target. It's a great master-killing ability though, damage output is huge and the opponent has to cheat/soulstone up to three times to avoid it completely, which is a big drain on resources.LOL, I guess I should stick to to abilities I have used. Good thing this didn't come up in a game. And as for the flank bit I was thinking that he would be out of range for most spells that can cause real harm. Of course there are always exceptions, so I should have said he is very hard to stop before he gets to you.

Thanks for keeping me on my toes. (I really have not used flurry yet so did not realize it was on one target only. Now I know. :albertein)

[Q'iq'el]

So... Indoors his FLight is actually more of an Anime levitate?

I prefer to think of it as constant high-speed buzzing around the room and through corridors, accompanied by breaking of vases, falling of pictures, spontaneous combustion of rugs and appearance of big cracks in the walls, where the Nephilim have accidentally brushed them.

[AvatarForm]

I prefer to think of it as constant high-speed buzzing around the room and through corridors, accompanied by breaking of vases, falling of pictures, spontaneous combustion of rugs and appearance of big cracks in the walls, where the Nephilim have accidentally brushed them.

Q - thanks for the mental imagery. I can now picture this working... it reminds me of the Gargoyles in the self-titled cartoon series... they seemed to fly this way indoors.

[Extinction Angel]

*Edit*
Never mind, gotta make the Rider a Nephilim first. Noon is still cool, and if you're dealing 4/5/6 most things aren't going to want to hit you back and take 2 dg.

Let's also not forget the potency of Noon while using Nekima.With Nekima the Hooded Rider's damage becomes 5/6/7 base, with the possibility of another mask on the flip for 6/7/8. Also a 21 SS combo, but still worth it in a larger game when you have Nekima anyhow.

The problem is, you really do want to be in Night as long as possible, but unlike the other two riders, you can't go backwards with passage of time. Which I think they should errata, but that's just me.

[Q'iq'el]

Let's also not forget the potency of Noon while using Nekima.With Nekima the Hooded Rider's damage becomes 5/6/7 base, with the possibility of another mask on the flip for 6/7/8. Also a 21 SS combo, but still worth it in a larger game when you have Nekima anyhow.

No. I've made the same error a couple of posts above - you can go back and check it.

Hooded Rider isn't a Nephilim. Nekima's Nephilim Heart affects only Nephilim.

For the same reason she cannot make it flying and has not much in terms of synergy with it.

[Extinction Angel]

Yep, you're right. Keep forgetting that. They should errata that too!

[tenabrae]

The couple of times I ran hooded rider with Leveticus pre-SPA nerf I found the rider itself quite poor. It's potential on paper is good but in practice I tended to find it just died a lot.

For the SS cost i'd much rather have nephilim in there dying and at least black blooding the enemy models.