Oops. found an infinite loop ^^ (Lilitu)

[Omadon]

Just a thought - what happens when you use Nekama's (0) Nephilim Heart to give her +masks on cast. Double Take goes infinite, and even if you miss them with melee, as soon as somethings been marked by a project emotions from pandora, it gets dragged into Nekama's -2Wp aura and is on a minus flip for defence. Emotional Trauma will do the rest D:

Not quite sure how to fix this. Maybe make Neverborn Heart expire after their next action? Perhaps successful Strikes/Casts, so that you don't lose the buff after trying to grow once. Unless it's the Df one. The wording will be slightly cumbersome, but something has to be done.

But not before I win some games with the succubus brigade :P

[wrabbit37]

Not quite infinite - it will run out because not every card in the deck will succeed at casting the spell. Still, it's a lot of casting over and over again.

[kbdrand]

Also, once the target is in melee you really should not get to perform another lure (just my opinion, not in the rules) due to the ability to make a melee strike each time.

[Sliver Chocobo]

can you cast lure in combat?

[kbdrand]

It does not have a ranged icon, so yes.

[nilus]

Not infinite. You still need to cast the spell. Try it out in practice(not just theoryfauxing it) and you will see its not as reliable as it initially looks.

[karn987]

Yeah, when you actually play her, you realize quickly its not nearly as infinite as it looks ;D

[nerdelemental]

Fixed! (TM)


:)

[karn987]

Fixed! (TM)


:)

>.> whats fixed?

[nerdelemental]

The problem.
"There isn't any."

Love it! Fixed! (this is a Nathan joke when it got to be crunch time on Book II, he looked for the quickest solution. Got to be an inside joke.)

[Wodschow]

Well even if it runs out eventually it's still the chainable attack that have the highest chance of running for a long time (80% of the deck allows you to cast it again whereas other similar abilities have less than 25% of the deck or so). I consider it a potent combo, even if your opponent will just resist it at some point.

The real problem probably lies in the price tag on having both Nekima and Lilitu (and thus also Lelu or things doesn't make sense).. 27 SS is alot.

[ProdigalPunk]

This was brought up awhile ago in the rules forum, and it was deemed Working as Intended. It is a bit of a beast considering she can cast 3 times, but people seem to be fine with it.

[Omadon]

Right, okay, what happens when it's preceeded by a project emotions on defensive flips? She's effectivley Ca10 (Nekama's -Wp aura). Seriously. How can this possibly be working as intended? She needs a four for a free hit, and adverage joe dude has what.. 5Wp? 6Wp? Even if she rolls out all fours, they need a pair of nines/tens to dodge the spell? And then they get a minus on their Df flip for her melee attack, and - that in mind, with pandora there, she doesn't even need to hit them. A string of fours will kill somebody. And you can take two of them! And it's range 18"! And, you can give them flight to reposition them with impunity. Not to mention that this list has, in addition to all of this, Nekama stood there, not only enabling the instant annihilation of any model that the Lilitu can see, but also Being Bloody Nekama. O_o

[karn987]

Right, okay, what happens when it's preceeded by a project emotions on defensive flips? She's effectivley Ca10 (Nekama's -Wp aura). Seriously. How can this possibly be working as intended? She needs a four for a free hit, and adverage joe dude has what.. 5Wp? 6Wp? Even if she rolls out all fours, they need a pair of nines/tens to dodge the spell? And then they get a minus on their Df flip for her melee attack, and - that in mind, with pandora there, she doesn't even need to hit them. A string of fours will kill somebody. And you can take two of them! And it's range 18"! And, you can give them flight to reposition them with impunity. Not to mention that this list has, in addition to all of this, Nekama stood there, not only enabling the instant annihilation of any model that the Lilitu can see, but also Being Bloody Nekama. O_o


It really strikes me as being 100% intended to be this dangerous because consider the models that you need to pull this off. How many SS is it to put this combo together?

Yeah it's balanced. It's 20ss just for the two of them and then you probably have the other sister so 27ss and then Pandora. So with a specific master and 20 - 27ss worth of models you can make this happen.... seems perfectly fair to me.

Seriously people.... consider how much it costs to do this. It is balanced, stop freaking out. It's better then the Seamus Undead Psychosis stupidity that can happen. It's just like any other nasty combo, except the cost on this one is huge. 20-27ss out of an average of 30ss.... yeah.... honestly guys, this is not broken.

[Omadon]

Pandora
Nekama-13
X2 Lilitu-14
Terror Tot-3
+5 stones

That, as a 35 point list, kills absolutly anything that it can see. Any model within 18 inches will drop dead. Double Take doesn't even check to see if they resist, it's on successful cast. So you can just drop fours all day, and if panda hits them, they're screwed. I'm gonna put up some battle reports of games with this, as ranting about how it looks on paper clearly isn't having the desired effect.

EDIT: Furthermore, aside from the combo there, it's not like these models don't have synergy. They're perfect for eachother. To have an instant-death loop on an enemy model that, at most, requires that you get a spell off on it with pandora before you start casting at them, in addition to models that synergize perfectly together, it just. god. I feel like we're reading different models here. How is this not completly busted? What beats it? Unless you can hide from the Wk5" flying Lilitu who have 18" range on lure for the entire game, goad activations until that point, and then kill the lot of them, then I just don't understand what anybody is supposed to do.

MORE EDIT: Also! As double take doesn't care weather or not you resist, it doesn't matter if it's a master or anything, sure, you'll resist a bunch of them from stones, but she only needs a 4, and you need, even with a master with 7Wp, thats solid 7s vs solid 4s. All you need to do is catch them with panda's project, that is the sole requirement. Another point just raised here - Lilitu also gives Panda free movement upto 18" around wherever she is, simply by chaincasting lure on her - early game, the lilitu don't need to move, so even if you just triple cast and fail expose fears, thats 12". This part itself isn't particularly bust - it just goes to show how much synergy this has.

I need to find me some enormous tournament that permits proxies in the UK before everybody comes to their senses :P

[Sliver Chocobo]

or the other play holds back until the Lilitu's wither and die

[Omadon]

why do they wither and die? they use Twisted Thoughts to heal eachother, and Nekama gives them regen 1. That covers the three damage they would suffer from two sided, and as soon as you get a second blood counter on anybody, they make a Lelu, and suddenly you have oodles of healing, and the only way to try to stop it is to approach into the vortex of lures. From which there is no escape.

[Sliver Chocobo]

why do they wither and die? they use Twisted Thoughts to heal eachother, and Nekama gives them regen 1. That covers the three damage they would suffer from two sided, and as soon as you get a second blood counter on anybody, they make a Lelu, and suddenly you have oodles of healing, and the only way to try to stop it is to approach into the vortex of lures. From which there is no escape.

My mistake didn't realise that

[karn987]

Its not nearly as dangerous as it looks heh. Especially for the SS you invest in it. You can chain 1 maybe 2 models up, but all it takes is a moderately powerful model to screw you up. Really, your just over-stating it's power. I've played it and tried these "abusive" combos and they aren't all they appear to be on paper. You can still flip junk, it uses up a lot of cards, and all it takes is to lose one of the models and the combo starts to fall appart.

Yeah it's not a bad combo, but there are much more dangerous, deadly, and hard to stop. *shrugs* But I guess you just gotta play it for yourself at this point, can't convince you otherwise.

[nilus]

I can break this easy with an Ortega crew. Just keep most of my force outside of 18 and then use companion and obey to move one model a turn into position to activate and take out a Lelu. They have a good defense and healing but no real way to reduce damage so just about any Ortega in a good position using all there actions(remember used obey to move me into the right position first as part of the same round) can take one out.

[LastDinosaur]

A spell is not considered successfully cast if it is resisted.

Also.. Expose Fears doesn't work on friendly models (not that it changes the proposed gameplay much as Lure have Wp resist, it just means Pandora will need slightly higher cards to win the resist and thus move).

[Sliver Chocobo]

zoraida, obays nekimain into lilitu

[Omadon]

A spell is not considered successfully cast if it is resisted.

Also.. Expose Fears doesn't work on friendly models (not that it changes the proposed gameplay much as Lure have Wp resist, it just means Pandora will need slightly higher cards to win the resist and thus move).

Correct and incorrect - you're right about expose fears, pardon me on that, however. There are four steps to spellcasting - Step 1 is target decleration, Step 2 is the casting duel (Where we see weather or not something is Successfully Cast or not - also a place whereby you have room to activate a trigger), and then Step 3 is Resist Duels, and Step 4 is the application of spell effects. I remember this specifically because it's the same wording as Levi's Disciplined Caster, which doesn't care weather or not they resist.

Also, Chocobo - if you want to get into specific master VS situation responses, Panda could just project emotions onto her so that she's got a -flip on Wp duels, which should prevent her from breaking Lilitu's Irresistable (Or Panda's for that matter). But this is besides the point, there may well be a specific master/whatever combo that beats this. I'm sure somebody will think of one, but in the meantime. The broader implications of 18" death traps are all I'm concerned with.

[Keeblerpowell]

Ok so I am a prospect player. Got the first core book and read it last night. So very unfamiliar with combos and such.

I just wanted to know if this is a game where combos like this are really going to ruin the game.

I love tournament play and would really like this to be a solid game with really cool and fun interactions with all the models in most games.

I guess I am just asking if this type of brokenness is typical for this game or is this a fluke or a drop in play testing?

If i get into this game it will be my wife, my step-daughter and I all at the same time so I would like to know that I am making a sound investment.


Showing up to a tournament that has 7 of the same combo list with a total of 11 players would make me sad.

[Berman]

Its rather untested and a weird fluke. Wyrd is good about plugging anything trully broken.

This is on the line. It seem infinite on paper, but really you can't keep winning your casts. On the other hand it seems clear that lure might need a simple fix to state you can't lure a target when its already in your melee range or even when in base contact would fix this combo up nice. So we shall have to wait and see what happens.

[karn987]

Its rather untested and a weird fluke. Wyrd is good about plugging anything trully broken.

This is on the line. It seem infinite on paper, but really you can't keep winning your casts. On the other hand it seems clear that lure might need a simple fix to state you can't lure a target when its already in your melee range or even when in base contact would fix this combo up nice. So we shall have to wait and see what happens.


Most likely what will happen, is the trigger will be changed to require the model to fail the resist duel on the spell to be subject to a second casting of this spell.

The original intention when we designed and tested it was that you had to fail the resist duel. So I think it's again something that was not caught in the final edit and misworded. So just wait for the card to come out or the next errata to hit, this should hopefully be on it.

[karn987]

Ok so I am a prospect player. Got the first core book and read it last night. So very unfamiliar with combos and such.

I just wanted to know if this is a game where combos like this are really going to ruin the game.

I love tournament play and would really like this to be a solid game with really cool and fun interactions with all the models in most games.

I guess I am just asking if this type of brokenness is typical for this game or is this a fluke or a drop in play testing?

If i get into this game it will be my wife, my step-daughter and I all at the same time so I would like to know that I am making a sound investment.


Showing up to a tournament that has 7 of the same combo list with a total of 11 players would make me sad.

No. This is not a game dominated by a few unbeatable combos. There are many powerful combos in the game, but there are no unstoppable ones.

This is a fluke in wording from the design/test to the final product. Something got miss-worded and Im 90% sure we will see a change to fix this.

Don't worry, this is a very good game to get into. There is a lot of hard work put into to keeping the game balanced and fun for everyone and Wyrd is really responsive to player feedback and questions. They take good care of their players in almost every sense.

[Omadon]

mm, this isn't nearly as rediculous if it the trigger gets fixed - the line between it being disgustingly OP and just damn nasty is that you only need a four, and they need quite a bit to resist every time, and with casting expert the Lilitu has three chances to screw up. Testing it downstairs against a problem matchup - Hoffman. Panda needs to be everywhere to deal with immune to influence, and hoffman himself is immune to project emotions, so - we shall see how it does.

Need to test it on Sonnia at some point. Whole thing kindof falls apart against her - she can force a resist on one through and then reflect it, dragging the lilitu out of Nekama's aura ^^

[nilus]

Showing up to a tournament that has 7 of the same combo list with a total of 11 players would make me sad.

Has not happened yet. At least in my area.

Official Malifaux tourney rules don't make people play set lists, you draft your crew every round based on your stategy. So lists are much more fluid and specialized to the task at hand.

That being said I can't think of one end all killer combo. There have been 5 or so tourneys in Chicago and we have had a good mix of factions and masters throughout.

[Omadon]

Played two games with this last night - one against hoffman and another against Zoradia. In one turn, with one Lilitu, Ryle and a Mechanical Rider just plain died. Hoffman would have too (Possibly from the same Lilitu) if my brother hadn't missread Dampening Field ^^ He detonated the remains of his two constructs afterwards killing the Lilitu, but by that point, Panda had gone to work, and left him wide open to the Nekama stood directly next to him.

Zoradia was a bit more complicated - nearly killed Nekama with my own trick, casting obey on the Lilitu, but he needed the actual melee hits to kill her, as Panda's aura is enemy only. He took a fair chunk out of her, but the lilitu healed her up - I'd hidden in a building and made myself a Lelu second turn so their healing was free to be directed at everything. Everything that came into LoS died from there on, and he folded out of hopelessness, as he had claim jump, and I could see the claim marker :P

Soo. Impending nerf? Or working as intended?

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

I love playing stuff on an open table, with no terrain and an opponent with a hand full of deuces and aces while mine is nothing but 11's and 12's.

Seriously though, combos are tough to beat sometimes but that's the thing. They can be beaten.

[Omadon]

I love playing stuff on an open table, with no terrain and an opponent with a hand full of deuces and aces while mine is nothing but 11's and 12's.

Seriously though, combos are tough to beat sometimes but that's the thing. They can be beaten.

Nice logic, and while mostly I agree with you. I feel that nothing, in any game, should ever be allowed to basically go infinite. If the trigger gets a nerf, then it's a good combo. If it doesn't - then alls you need is a string of fours to kill a master. This has the same killing power as all the Panda-Woosh stuff, just slightly less range (and with cooler models.. and more flexibility, and irresistable across the board and... did I mention cooler models?)

So, if you aren't going to nerf them, could you at least.. maybe release the models soon? Tournament coming up in november! ^_~

[Matamane]

It's not broken.

A 27 point commitment is at least double the point cost any other workable combo in the game. You get what you pay for, and it is fair for it to be equally as powerful.

[Iamwyrd]

There is no need to nerf it. Yes you need only a four to get it off. But it still has a resist. You get it off with the four, so 12 is the TN. A master lets use kirai flips to stop it, she flips a 7 so her total is 12 all she has to do is soulstones to add and she resists it. The only thing its really good against in low wp minions. Master have plenty potential to stop it. And if its that bad just stay away from her or hide behind something to block Los. Its a good combo but not infinite. IMO. What's stupid is her 4" melee range. Now that with lure is gross. And the fact that she has wicked. So she is a 4" aura of no escape essentially.

[Wodschow]

That's the thing however as Omadon pointed out.

Even if the spell is resisted it is still successfully cast - so will trigger anohter cast, which again just needs a 4.

How long can you keep up with a Ca8 model that wins on draws?


The trigger does need some nerfing, but I believe it is sufficient to let it trigger on failed resists rather than successful casts.


Edit: Unless 'completely resolve' on the trigger means that the spell must not be resisted. Not a native speaker, but I think that a resisted spell is still resolved - just that nothing happens.

[kbdrand]

In my opinion (just my personal opinion) if a spell is resisted then it is not successfully cast. Sure you got the spell off, but if it is resisted then it was not successful but rather it failed to affect the target, therefore the spell as a whole failed.

Until I hear an official ruling, that is the way we play it in our gaming group. So yes, it is a good combo, but not endless since all you have to do is resist it.

[Wodschow]

Page 63 - Casting Spells:

"... If the spell does require a resistance Duel, once your model successfully casts the spell, any affected models must perform a resistance Duel against your casting total to resist its effects."
This indicates that even resisted spells are successfully cast. Successfully casting merely means winning the Ca->CC duel.

[kbdrand]

I understand, but until we have an errata on this I have to go with the interpretation that doesn't hold up the game. Constantly being able to recast the spell even in the face of a resist to me is just broken.

[Iamwyrd]

I doubt their gonna erratta it any time soon. It is a 27 point sinc that you have to bring to do it. So people are just gonna have to revert back to 25 point games to get away from it. Lol

[karn987]

I doubt their gonna erratta it any time soon. It is a 27 point sinc that you have to bring to do it. So people are just gonna have to revert back to 25 point games to get away from it. Lol


Or just ask people not to play the combo if you think it is abusive. I've never had an issue with any players playing abusive lists over and over again.

If this bugs you, house rule the trigger back to what I said it originally was. That it only triggers if the model fails the resist. Hopefully it gets a fix because it does need one for a variety of reasons.

[Iamwyrd]

Or just ask people not to play the combo if you think it is abusive. I've never had an issue with any players playing abusive lists over and over again.

If this bugs you, house rule the trigger back to what I said it originally was. That it only triggers if the model fails the resist. Hopefully it gets a fix because it does need one for a variety of reasons.

That's how we play at our lgs. If you resist the spell it technically wasn't successfully cast. For trigger purposes.

[Omadon]

On a side note, it's not a 27 point combo, it's a 20 point combo, the extra 7 points is just another lilitu. It's worse in smaller games. Their one heavy model just flat dies, and the rest is left to deal with Nekama.

Also - in that case, the way you play it at your store isn't true to the actual rules. They clearly state this. Soo, that doesn't even fit into a debate about the rules of the game. There are plenty of above-the-law ways to deal with this, but, what does that achieve beyond your LGS?

[karn987]

Well there is very little point to arguing about it here any more. We can't make the rules change, but we can influence how we play at our LGS (which is the heart of where you play the game). The marshal's are the ones responsible for that and they seem resistant to making a change on this one.

If you think it should be changed, try sending them a well written and logical PM asking them to consider it. But RAW has been established that this works. I don't think the trigger is as we intended when it was in test and design, but it is what it is and there isn't much we can do about it. So try to learn to play around it and get people not to use it. If your worried about Tourney play, just ask them to play it with the alternate trigger. If its some big hardcore tourney.... well its a hardcore tourney, there are going to be worse things in that I think.

[Hatchethead]

On paper it looks somewhat hideous. It's a 20ss combo, so it's hard to condemn it ... though in a 35ss game? I dunno. I'd have to run up against it a few times on a table packed with terrain before I could make a determination. At face value, I'm not thrilled with a Ca trigger that ignores the resist flip and potentially allows a string of free melee attacks. That said, I'm not entirely convinced this requires NERFJUSTICE. I'll admit, it looks scary in print, and Omadon's playtest results don't inspire optimism.

As has been mentioned, at least it's a simple fix.

Double Take [Lure]: After target model fails to resist Lure, completely resolve the spell, then cast Lure again.

[Matamane]

Nekima makes this fail on a 1 or a Black Joker.

It doesn't have to be made to only work on success, give Lure the ranged icon, and problem solved

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

It doesn't have to be made to only work on success, give Lure the ranged icon, and problem solved
Sorry, but that's not happening.

[Hatchethead]

Sorry, but that's not happening.
Thank God (and Sketch).

[Matamane]

I dont even think a fix is needed, but if you were to change something, I think that would be what to change while preserving the intent.

[Hatchethead]

I'd prefer they tweak Double Take rather than fundamentally alter Lure, assuming there's need for change. I'm not sure there is. Won't know until I play it.

[Wodschow]

I definetly think it should be changed to failed resists only.. For obvious reasons really.. But I said this already, just posting to comment on a few things:


Nekima makes this fail on a 1 or a Black Joker.

Incorrect. You still need a 4+. The enemy gets lower Wp from being close to Nekima (which is what I assume you're refering to) so will have a harder time to resist, but that doesn't affect your own casting at all.


Well there is very little point to arguing about it here any more. We can't make the rules change, but we can influence how we play at our LGS (which is the heart of where you play the game). The marshal's are the ones responsible for that and they seem resistant to making a change on this one.

...

Sorry Karn, but I find this somewhat amusing considering the now many pages long thread about Sorrows and their link. :P

[Matamane]

Stupid me, lol

[AvatarForm]

After reading this, I cant wait for the models to be released...

**crosses fingers and prays they stick to the concept art**

[Hatchethead]

Should also be noted, while skimming a Leve thread in the Outcast forum I stumbled across this:


Sadly no. You announce triggers after both players have developed their duel totals. A resisted spell is a failed cast so no triggers.

One thing to keep in mind, however is that a pulse that generates resists only needs one failed resist to be successful.

So. Something to think about. The RAW in the book may not reflect the RAI.

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

Don't think about that.

The Bug King was incorrect in that interpretation.

A Spell is successfully cast if it's requirements are completed. By meeting it's CC, and any other costs required.

[Hatchethead]

Don't think about that.
Brain: shutting down.

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

As a matter of fact, if you go to the next post by TBK in that thread, he said he was probably wrong. Also, on the very next page, I spelled out how a Spell was cast successfully.

Lesson for today: Read everything. :)

[Hatchethead]

/SHAME

:hangman:

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

*cuts noose rope*

No worries, mate. Happens to the best of us.

[Leojond]

I may have read over this too quickly, so sorry if it was already answered.

Can she cast it, make the strike, gain double take, and keep getting free strikes?

Or does the model have to be pushed in order to get the strike so once its base to base with her it no longer works?

[karn987]

I may have read over this too quickly, so sorry if it was already answered.

Can she cast it, make the strike, gain double take, and keep getting free strikes?

Or does the model have to be pushed in order to get the strike so once its base to base with her it no longer works?

If they are in base to base, you can keep getting the strikes and Double Takes. If they move no distance, no problem. The only requirement for you to make the strike is that they are in your melee range after the move ends (even if they move 0").

[Korrova]

Even without Nekima tricks I was able to get five lures in a row off the other day. Second one brought Samuel into melee, and I was able to whip him four times. Samuel then activated and killed her off, but a Stitched then Gamble Life and got the Red Joker for a ridiculous 11 dmg. Poor Samuel...