Hamelin the Plagued

[Zaqir]

So I just go the expansion book and I must admit this guy has been intrigued.

I am a noob I must admit as I have only had 1 game with my Leviticus crew.

so I was wondering.

1)What are some of the good models from the first book that might really benefit him.

2)My thoughts on the second book are that the night terrors might help big time with their ability to be rather resilient and can lower WP.

3)Am I correct in saying that basically only 1 rat can be spawned per model because his own rule that things that die within 6 inches of him are replaced with a rat but no other summoning takes place?

3b)Does that mean if i have a rat within 6 inches of him and it dies another rat takes its place?

4)Semi rules question but models that he can "summon" or for example the rats can summon (IE rat catcher) don't have to be part of my initial crew costs etc?

for instance I don't have to start with a Ratcatcher in my crew but i can sac 3 rats to get on? The same with the Stolen? I can just summon them to me?

5)Blight counters on a model cause it to take 1 additional damage. but is that 1 for each blight counter or just 1?

5a)The spell he does that does damage for each blight counter. if a model has 1 blight counter on it does it do 1 damage or 1 +1 damage because the model has a blight counter?

[Wodschow]

Some of this should probably have been posted in the Rules section, but who cares? :) So here goes:

1) I don't think any of the models in Book1 are tremendously useful, maybe Canines? Kade, Candy and Tots might be considerable aswell. There's alot of options for sure, but the ones offered in Book2 generally seems better to me.

2) I guess they're okay aswell :) -2 Wp is nice with no resist sure is nice, but it'll most likely take a card to get off. Haven't played him yet so not really sure how critical cards will be, but my immediate impression is that he'll be missing them alot, time will tell I guess.

3) As per the Rule of Equivalency on page 34, I would assume so, yes. That rule is still being discussed by the Rules Marshals though.

3b) Yes killed rats come back to life :) Which is what makes the Ratcatchers (0) action so damn useful. Killed rats heal him and the rats get to activate all over.

4) Models summoned after the battle has begun doesn't cost any SS unless the spell says so specifically (the Dreamer summoning Daydreams for instance).
So free Stolen whenever you feel like it.
I think you're better off starting with the Ratcatchers on the table though, at least one of them - to kill your rats and let them activate over thus moving faster around.

5) Just one extra damage regardless of the amount of counters.

5a) I would assume it does X+1 Wounds, X being the amount of counters on the model.

[Zaqir]

Hey thanks for the info and ya he just seems to appeal to me being able to swarm the table, the outnumber aspect in this game being able to activate freely later on etc makes me wonder if the rats need the catcher to do the all at once activating thing because you trade activations early on but then just have a ton of free activations either (unless you really want to get the jump on people)

[dakrulz55]

bring a pigapault and a taxidermist to have flying pig bomb shenanigans!!!!



edit:ignore this, just read his lure of emptyness (rained on my parrade :( )

[Chucklemonkey]

I'm also very intrigued by him and the playstyle that he seems to use from reading.

As Woodschow mentioned Canine remains, Candy and Kade should work well. I definately intend to take them in my Rat/Dog/Child swarm along with some Guild Hounds. I had originally got it in my head that he could hire Alyce as she was soulless and thought that would be excellent back up but unfortunately Hamelin is not a scavenger master.

One question about his hiring insignificant models, not that I intend to do so, but I assume he can take general faction totems such as the Drill Sergeant?



Edit: Some giant rats for anyone interested until the proper ones are out.

http://www.otherworld.me.uk/dvseries.html

[Zaqir]

i thought he could take ht 1 or insignificant non attached totems but he can only take 1 correct?

Also I don't know if the guild hounds are that great with him, alot of the powers that go with them are like guild related.

My main focus is to find ways to lower WP for him to flute someone big.

good swarmers, ways to inflict blight etc etc.

as I said I liked the night terrors but the Alps are potentially interesting with their own swarm dynamic, slow to screw people and a bit of wp tricks.

[Chucklemonkey]

I still see a lot of good stuff in the hounds, if you take two the only thing you lose from being a non guild master is the cashback in terms of soulstones.

Of course if Hamelin is not close enough to prevent corpse counters etc from being generated then they can get a 1 action charge which will be useful against quite a few masters

The good thing is that there are plenty of choices for people to choose from, very much looking forward to trying him out.

[Zaqir]

I keep thinking his spell that does damage for each blight counter is good but to be honest the more i think about it the more i think that spell is a red hearing.

Little things will already be dead if 3 rats or so attack, big things might not even be hit and really is it worth the effort?

His ranged attack and controlling WP 5 or less folks will drive folks insane and his other tricks are what will shine more in my book.

Although i do hope there are more blight counter shinanigens in the future, perhaps a spell or a model that makes maggot creatures (if they release something like that) pop out if a model has a blight counter.

[Wodschow]

Blight counters are awesome in themselves, I agree that Bleeding Death seems to be less so, but here's some things to consider aswell.

First and foremost: The spell is not considered a ranged attack. You can use it on a model which is engulfed by your swarm of rats.

For Hamelin: It allows you to use either the Pipe to attack Df or Bleeding Death to attack Wp. Getting the trigger off let's you use the spell twice which isn't all that bad at all. (Trigger on Pipes still being better (imo), but takes another card.)

All other models designed for Hamelin can use it (cept for Rats), even the Stolen and the Wretch (who by the way have a considerable Ca-value for what they're worth).
This is generally your only way of doing damage at range.

There's by the way also several means to lower your opponents Wp. Rats and Canines have Rabies, Night Terrors have a trigger on their aura (albeit expensive in cards). Stolen and Wretch have No Humanity and there might be a few others aswell.


Just food for thought~*

[Zaqir]

You know what else I like?
Nix, because of his reverse damage line where his weak damage does more then his severe etc you can literally cheat crappy cards on to him if you want.

[Sobek]

You know what else I like?
Nix, because of his reverse damage line where his weak damage does more then his severe etc you can literally cheat crappy cards on to him if you want.

Is he even allowed to take Nix, since he's Height 2?

[Zaqir]

Nix in book 2? ya (he is soulless or ht1 last i looked)

So a few things I like about him.
His weapons are ok (aside from taking 2 wounds if he doesn't smack you hard)

Decent stats and he is Fast, no tokens needed etc.

He has ways to heal and if he dies he aint dead just yet, he has summoning tricks and some other neat abilities.

Things like bully can be a big help (Frankly I don't know how gremlins will fight him)

The ability to ignore discard abilities and to give him some positive twists etc.

Now earlier I said Bleeding Disease was a read hearing and it might be (as several things that work with him cast it) but i forgot he has a trigger that lets him keep casting it and that he has a -2 ca each casting but with a CA of 7 and only needing a 10 to cast it, there is a chance it can be spammed 2 or 3 times in some circumstances.

What intrigues me a bit is that spell he has that sucks in tiny things and insignificant things and then does damage if he touches them from the pull. That combined with his ability to have things die and turn into rats is interesting.

The spell he has that makes him the only target may not be the best spell for him however his totem can cast that which can screw up some folks trying to target him.

There just seems to be SOOOOO many interesting combos with him that honestly I cannot wait to go all out when he becomes available.

[Sobek]

Nix in book 2? ya (he is soulless or ht1 last i looked)

In Hamlin's rules it, uses the word AND, not OR. This is probably a case where it could have been worded better, I'd think.

[Sezar]

Man, if that would be the case, then Hamelin couldn't take nobody but The Stolen, as as long as I know they are the only model that is at the same time Soulless, Insignificant AND Ht1; not even Rats, The Wrench, Nix, Rat Catchers... have those 3 stats!!!

And yes, Nix and Rat Catchers are Ht2, but Nix is Soulless and Rat Catchers are Insignificants. I really think that a model only has to have one of those 3 stats to be able to be taken along with Hamelin the Plagued.

[Chucklemonkey]

In Hamlin's rules it, uses the word AND, not OR. This is probably a case where it could have been worded better, I'd think.

I think it must mean or.

As zaqir says, there are so many cool combos available, really looking forward to trying him out when the models arrive.

[Wodschow]

It would be a joke if Hamelin weren't allowed to bring his loyal dog that can only be taken by Hamelin, so obviously yes, Hamelin can bring Nix (I believe the -only- other Master allowed to take Nix currently is Kirai (if she also brings mercenary Hamelin)).

@Zaqir:
Inevitable Truth is -awesome-, use it following Understand the Soulless or getting off the trigger on the Pipes. Now the model can do next to nothing: Unable to target anyone but Hamelin thanks to Inevitable Truth and unable to target Hamelin thanks to Bully..

Also.. While I guess it's up to personal preference I find (0)Fate is Meaningless to be soo much better than his (0) Useless Tou ability (which is the one I assume you refer to when you say positive flips).
Fate is Meaningless is easily one of the best (0) actions in the game (in my opinion), especially when you have two as awesome weapons as Hamelins.


Edit@Nix discussion:
Nix is insignificant and soulless so can be taken by master Hamelin.
Nix have an ability called Hamelin's Dog that says the following: This model may only be hired by a crew containing any Hamelin model.
So can be taken if master Hamelin is in the crew.

Can also be taken if normal Hamelin is in the crew, but since Nix is not a mercenary he can only join Outcast crews or masters specifically allowed to hire him.

Leveticus can hire Soulless models, but he cannot hire Hamelin (so Leveticus is out).
Viktoria and Von Schill can only hire mercenaries, so they're out as Nix isn't a mercenary.
Jones and Ophelia can only hire Gremlin (and pigs and kin and vermin), so they're out aswell.

Kirai can hire Spirits from every faction, Nix is a spirit, she can also hire mercenaries, which normal Hamelin is.

So other than master Hamelin, Kirai is the only one allowed to take Nix currently.

[izikial]

hi guys, is the -2 ca on his bleeding desies added up each time, like the second time it trigers you are at -4 and so on

[Wodschow]

I thought of that aswell.

I feel that is the intention of the rules.

However it doesn't make any mention of the effect being cumulative (such as Anasalea Kaeris' trigger does) and the general rule is that a model can only be affected once by an effect unless otherwise mentioned.

So I'm inclined to say from a RAW perspective that the third cast would also be at just -2 Ca.

Interesting to note is that it doesn't seem that the spell has to be cast on the same target as is usually the case with that kind of triggers.

[tenabrae]

Leveticus can hire Soulless models, but he cannot hire Hamelin (so Leveticus is out).
They can double-team in a brawl though... Nix + Leve is brutal.

--

When testing hamelin in 35ss I ran something like hammy, 2 rat catchers, wench, 3 rats, nix. I still haven't seen the book (hopefully today if the distributor loves us) but from the current discussion it sounds like he's much the same, pick a thing to only target hammy/can't target hammy run about turning everything into rats, swarm.

--

re: the wording on his restriction, changing it to OR would actually be more restrictive. Consider the sentence, "you may eat apples, oranges and pears" ... this clearly doesn't mean you need to eat all 3, it means you may eat any or all of the 3. The sentence "you may eat apples, oranges or pears" on the other hand means you must pic one of the three to eat.

[Sezar]

re: the wording on his restriction, changing it to OR would actually be more restrictive. Consider the sentence, "you may eat apples, oranges and pears" ... this clearly doesn't mean you need to eat all 3, it means you may eat any or all of the 3. The sentence "you may eat apples, oranges or pears" on the other hand means you must pic one of the three to eat.


So true there!

[Sobek]

Perhaps, but by saying that you can only hire models that are Height 1, Soulless, and Insignificant, it implies that the model must have all 3 traits. Granted, intuitively we know that the models should only need to have one of those traits. It just could have been worded a little better. Thankfully, most of the wording and editing in the new book is far better than that in the first one.

[Zaqir]

Perhaps, but by saying that you can only hire models that are Height 1, Soulless, and Insignificant, it implies that the model must have all 3 traits. Granted, intuitively we know that the models should only need to have one of those traits. It just could have been worded a little better. Thankfully, most of the wording and editing in the new book is far better than that in the first one.

Its like Leviticus who can hire soulless,undead,constructs.

he can hire either HT1,INsig or souless stuff, not a combo of all 3.

It states later he can't hire things like gremlins etc.

[Zaqir]

As for the Bleeding disease trigger i believe its -2 ca each time the trigger is in effect so its -2 -4 -6 etc.

the reason for this is that its part of the same action during the trigger.

You cast the spell and trigger it, and the cast is -2ca with essentially a free cast not taking an action, it can trigger again but its harder etc.

As soon as you stop triggering or use a new action pt you are back to your full ca.

I am sure you can see why that was done for balance purposes etc.

If it only remained on -2 ca then you could get on a hot streak where you only needed the right suits and cards 5 to red joker to get it off etc. Thats a bit unbalanced you must agree.

[Hatchethead]

They can double-team in a brawl though... Nix + Leve is brutal.
I've been wondering about this.

Does Hamelins inability to hire constructs not crap all over teaming with Leveticus in a brawl situation? I mean, you still COULD, but Leve with no constructs ...?

[izikial]

as far as lists go, i was thinking for 35 ss (its what i normaly play)

hamlin
5 rats 10ss
nix 7ss
rat catcher 5ss
stolen 3ss
obedeint wretch 2ss

this leavs me 8 ss, what do you guys think i should fill this with, my game plan is using the rat catcher and rats to rush the enemy, maybe nix with them to heard them, and just kill and blight what ever i can, wial hamlin and the otheres are runing up, when the rat wave dies hamlin mopes up the rest, sacrificing at least one stolen a turn maybe two on the first turn, they then turn into rats for more blight, dont really see what the wretch is good for, maybe just the draw thing, but i could kill her for a rat.

three rulse questions, things that refrence the next action is that just like an atack or a spell or for the rest of the turn. nix's drink spirit is that a perminant buff. and lastly, the talent nihialism makes insignificant thinks not insignificant at the start of game, so could and insignificant thing be given the deilivery scheme or not, because when you pick the scheme the rat would be insignificant.

[Zaqir]

I would personally throw in 2 Night Terrors at 3ss each I figure they will be of use to you in many ways, either screw up shooting, lowering WP or just being annoying.

As for the rules I have the same questions for the first 2 things you listed. IE how long are they for?

As for the third its all about sequence, i think his rules making them insignificant apply only once they are on the table, so a battle like holding the table corners could be held with rats etc but that one might not be the case.

[Geckilian]

Izikial, considering Hamelin can summon a Stolen once a turn, you could drop the one you have for 3 spare soulstones. If you planned to turn it in to a rat, you could always just buy another and save a soulstone.

[izikial]

thanks dude the rats thing makes sens, i like what your saying with the night terrors, just looked through stuff again, and there isnt much point in starting with a stolen, none of the sacrifices are worth doing first turn, and all having one lets me do is take one more action first turn, and i dont think its worth 3ss to take one more action in the first turn, othere than night terrors, i thought about either alps, just swarm the enamy slow them make more alps, witch will give me more to sacrifice or more rats. or canine remains, onyl 2ss lets me take a few of them, who can run up give it a shot get killed and become rats, as they arnt slow they can easaly keep up. i havnt played any games with hamy yet, what do you all think.

[Wodschow]

Several things on this thread.

Hamelin's hiring ability says:
"Crews containing this model may only hire Ht 1, Insignificant, and Soulless models ... "
This does NOT mean that the models have to be all of them.
If it had said models that are Ht1, Insig and Soulless, then you'd have had a point.


The way I see it hiring a stolen from the start of the game is a very viable tactic. Here's why:
It is very important to note that a sacrificed Stolen STILL yields a rat (unlike most other models that only give one when killed).
Thus it allows Hamelin to sacrifice a model extra on the first turn, which could be used to get 2 cards more to save up some good cards for later turns. It could also allow you to get Obedience off on the first turn if you want Nix to move forward fast or something like that.
Secondly and more importantly: Sacrificing The Stolen twice on turn one lets you move the rats very war forward when you use Nix's 'Gorge on Pain' ability combined with its (0) Herd Dog.

There's many different options.

I'd also consider not starting with the Rat-Catcher (also costing +1 SS in hiring the rats instead). Since he's rather slow on his own.

You should sit down and think through all the ways of moving your rats and come up with tactics for getting a quick start off.
There's many ways, not sure if I've found the quickest way of moving the rats upfield yet.



And yeah discussed Leveticus/Hamelin in another thread, Leve will be alone with Alyce (no constructs untill you kill enemies) and you'll be bringing a zillion Canine Remains. But my god you will have ALOT of cards (which makes Hamelin quite terrifying, and probably Leveticus aswell).

[izikial]

i thought with cards at the end of the turn you go back to max hand sise, this will negate the extra 2 from the first turn sac. what are peaple finding more effectiv, night terrors or alps? and how meany ss dose hamlin liek to have in his cach

[Hatchethead]

And yeah discussed Leveticus/Hamelin in another thread, Leve will be alone with Alyce (no constructs untill you kill enemies) and you'll be bringing a zillion Canine Remains. But my god you will have ALOT of cards (which makes Hamelin quite terrifying, and probably Leveticus aswell).
Interesting. And possibly sick. I look forward to juggling Leve and The Hame in a brawl situation. Should be challenging, if nothing else.

Hamelin is my next Master ... just waiting for the box. I hesitate to buy the models individually since Wyrd released the Leve box with a hiterto unseen Waif. I'd hate to have to buy the box for just a single model (which my collector OCD would demand). Lucky for me, I waited for the Leve box before starting his crew, but I came close to pulling the trigger on individual blisters on more than one occasion.

[Zaqir]

I like how we are like the Hammelin crew :) go team plague :)

[daemonkin]

If Hamelin can hire terror tots, can these grow to Nephilim and potentially Mature Nephilim in the game? A little uncertain about Neverborn but I like the idea of it if it is possible...

D.

[JayBarlekamp]

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=14368

I hope terror tots like rats. yummy yummy.

[Ciaran]

Jay, don't get too excited. If the rat is killed by tot in a way that allows another rat to be summoned he doesn't get the blood counter.

It's still a valid way to get a Mature out on the battlefield in a crew that wouldn't be able to otherwise, just not as cheap or easy as has been presented.

[Hatchethead]

Might be of interest to some to learn that The Stolen are NOT meant to be unique (http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=15173&page=2) as indicated by the book. It was a typo. Thanks again to Sketch for clearing this up!

:peace:

[Zaqir]

Something else i was going over the other day and overlooked in my write up.

Hammelin has the ability to make things insignificant so do a few of his factions. Not only can this screw up plans in schemes and strategies etc but some spells i thought of as meh before might have a few tricks and a half.

1)He has the spell that can draw in ht1 and insig models and if they touch him they take damage (some possibilities there big time, especially if a few things die and you get more rats)

2)He can make something insignificant and then he can bully them all day but he has the spell to force him to be targetted.

3)I love how he can basically ignore - or + flips etc, I know it can stop crap like Zoraida being annoying but can it be used defensively?

IE can you use it to keep guys you know will hit hard from getting those +s? (Ie Leviticus discarding his control cards to give himself +s, can Hammelin use his power to nullify that)


I had some crazy thoughts in my mind of hammelin moving up with rats and attacking and a rat catcher running in killing all the rats but causing NEW rats to be summoned for (albiet slow) rats that still might get more attacks?

[Wodschow]

That is the whole idea of the Ratcatcher and his (0) action.. ...

Also.. Rats are always Slow, so don't suffer from being summoned at all.

And no you cannot negate the opponents :+fate flips with Hamelins Fate is Meaningless.

Both Fate is Meaningless and Useless Toy also states that it's only useful during Hamelins next action so will not carry on to the opponents turn.

[Zaqir]

rats are always slow? remind me to check rats more lol.

they do have instinctual and have alot of little movement tricks.

i still cannot wait for him to come out.

[daemonkin]

Yeah I am really looking forward to painting up a swarm of rats and going at it in the sewers of Malifaux!

D.

[JayBarlekamp]

Why wouldn't the tot (or young)get a blood counter? the nephilim's ability generates the blood counter, not the rat.

[Ciaran]

Jay, because the blood counter is generated from the killed model, via the nephilim's ability. Hamelin's ability says no counters of any other sort are generated. Unless this gets errata'd it means he blocks anything else from happening, blood, corpse or body part.

[Vash Axis]

Does Hamlin's ability Nihilism, remove insignificant from himself? My actual question is if an ability say "friendly models", is the model the ability originates from "friendly" to itself? I hope this makes sense.

[tenabrae]

Yes, he's a friendly model in his own crew. You can't target yourself, but you can be affectd by your own stuff (e.g. if you threw a blast down and it happened to hit you.

It isn't an aura or pulse so those restrictions don't kick in.

[Vash Axis]

so what then, is the point of giving him the insignificant characteristic if he just loses it as soon as the games starts. I guess this is just confusing to me for some reason.

[velri]

The terror tot will can still generate a counter through his ability, because it actually has nothing to do with the death of the model, its a separate ability that just has the prerequisite of killing a model first

[tenabrae]

so what then, is the point of giving him the insignificant characteristic if he just loses it as soon as the games starts. I guess this is just confusing to me for some reason.
Possibly a hold-over from a previous version where there might have been another way to remove insig. Also, possibly future-proofing in case a model allows you to remove that ability from Hamelin.

[Vash Axis]

Does Hamlin's ability Nihilism, remove insignificant from himself? My actual question is if an ability say "friendly models", is the model the ability originates from "friendly" to itself? I hope this makes sense.

Can I get a Marshall to comment on this. Thanks for the info guys but I'd like to get a ruling from a Marshall.

[Vash Axis]

bump

[Sandwich]

The terror tot will can still generate a counter through his ability, because it actually has nothing to do with the death of the model, its a separate ability that just has the prerequisite of killing a model first


No.
It's called a Blood Counter because you receive a Blood Counter when a model is slain.
It works identical to McMourning's Body Part Counter.

When a model is killed within 6" of Hamelin, the Plagued, or a Rat Catcher, a Malifaux Rat is summoned into base contact with that model and no other models or counters may be generated from the slain model, that includes Blood Counters.

[karn987]

No.
It's called a Blood Counter because you receive a Blood Counter when a model is slain.
It works identical to McMourning's Body Part Counter.

When a model is killed within 6" of Hamelin, the Plagued, or a Rat Catcher, a Malifaux Rat is summoned into base contact with that model and no other models or counters may be generated from the slain model, that includes Blood Counters.

I believe you are wrong on this Sandwich. Sketch and Keltheos have ruled on this in the past.

Drain Blood would still get a counter because it is outside of the Rule of Equivalency and things like the rat generation. See the big thread on it.

[velri]

it does not work identical to mc mourning at all, it is a 0 action that you take as long as you have killed a model that turn.
you can use your first ap kill something, 2nd ap to run around and then still do drain blood, it has nothing to do with the actual death of the model.
its more like a victory dance where their tears of joy turn into blood counters rather than getting the enemies blood

the blood sense on nekima and the black blood shaman do cancelled out by the voracious rats as as their ability says the gain one when a model dies

[Natty]

Did this ever get officially resolved by the Rules Marshalls?

I remember there being tons of arguments about the whether voracious rats could cancel out things that were closer to the dying model, and how exactly the ability interacted with the RoE (which I tried to stay out of because it was across like 6 million threads and I didn't have much of an opinion since I could see it being read either way).

[Ratty]

Did this ever get officially resolved by the Rules Marshalls?

I remember there being tons of arguments about the whether voracious rats could cancel out things that were closer to the dying model, and how exactly the ability interacted with the RoE (which I tried to stay out of because it was across like 6 million threads and I didn't have much of an opinion since I could see it being read either way).

Nope never got anything back. I think he's going to get a major rewrite/clarification in v2 so they are keeping quiet.