Colette Du Bois

[Teal]

Am I the only one frothing at the mouth to play her? Even with the scant amount of information that we have, I've fallen in love with the minis and the small blurb on the box set. I'm hoping that the Mannequins aren't just an alternate Performer model, and me and one of my friends spent a bit discussing various possibilities for how the showgirls and mannequins interact, but even so, I just can't stop pouring over these models.

So anyone else as excited as I am or have any guesses about how these ladies work?

[Omenbringer]

Finally an arcanist model I am eager to play.

[Jonas Albrecht]

I think my girlfriend almost died when she saw the models. She's an Arcanist, but she's never had a subfaction that really popped for her until now.

[Dance Commander]

There was nothing about her box group I did not like. Each of the models look beautiful and I have a feeling they're going to be a great construct group to run alongside Ramos. Also, the ideas of what can be done with illusions and puppetry just seem appealing to me. All that being said, definitely making sure I have money set aside for her when she's released. :D

[Q'iq'el]

Finally an arcanist model I am eager to play.

+1


I'm very eager! <-

[Melnibonean]

+1 from me too.

A great looking crew and I'll be getting them as soon as I can. Even if I can't work them out and play them like crap I'll still field them just because I like the look and concept.

A bit like why I like Seamus... I've never quite managed to get the play style quite right but I just like the look of the crew and the concept.

Winning doesn't always matter, playing a great game with great models is 80% of the game for me.

[WoeIsMe]

i am not a fan of the arcanists as they are now but when i saw collete and crew my jaw dropped. the minis look superb and the concept sounds like something i would enjoy alot. i may break away from the neverborn yet....

[Chucklemonkey]

Agree with most of the comments in this thread. I have no Arcanist master - despite having a soft spot for Tina - but Colette is a must buy for me, stunning models, and I am intrigued by how the mannequins will work.

[Ivellis]

Illusion is like the password to unlocking my interest in something. Whether it is a movie, a book, a game or a crew in Malifaux. Bring on the showgirls and their deadly mannequins.

[shekbo]

They really are going to be interesting. I love the look of the mannequin models, personally not as big a fan of the showgirls, but they do look cool. Another pleasant surprise from Wyrd!

[13th Warrior]

Up until now I hadn't really bothered about the Arcanists. A passing interest in 'Tina was about it.

But these! I just love the models, and they're going to be great fun to play. Add in a Coryphee or 2 and I know exactly who my next Master will be.:dancing2:

Just amazing :elefant:

[EricJ]

She was one of the hardest crews to finalize the rules for, I think because we really wanted to make the rules reflect how cool the miniatures were shaping up to be. Let hope we managed it!

[Jadin]

They certainly have me interested, I am eager to see their rules. Any chance of getting a sneak preview of Coletta before Gencon?

[dakrulz55]

well sign me up for this faction the models are beyond amazing. plus this looks like the one faction for the arcanist id enjoy painting and playing.

[redstripe]

Each of the models look beautiful and I have a feeling they're going to be a great construct group to run alongside Ramos.

A Ramos and Collette team up would also represent their storyline well.

[Angus Khan]

A Ramos and Collette team up would also represent their storyline well.

Yet another reason I will be buying Collete at Gencon...

As an avid Ramos player, I can't wait to see that fluff. :)

[icemantis99]

Oooooh, does Ramos have a Rusty Alyce he can actually stand now?

[Extinction Angel]

When I first heard about this game and read the descriptions of the different factions, I was sure I would end up playing an Arcanist crew. Turns out I just couldn't find a fit with any of the current ones.

The Showgirls are much more close to what I was wanting from the arcanists. I truly can't wait to give these demented divas a shot.

Any chance Myranda works well with these showstoppers?

[Svenn]

I think my girlfriend almost died when she saw the models. She's an Arcanist, but she's never had a subfaction that really popped for her until now.
Sounds familiar... I've been trying to get my girlfriend to play. She really liked the Hoarcat Pride, Sabertooth Cerberus, and a few other Arcanist models, but she wasn't really into a full group. I showed her these and now she wants them badly. :)

[icemantis99]

Is it just me, or do Colette and Shamus shop at the same hat store?
Also, where can I find the Malifaux Hat store?

[Ropetus]

Also, where can I find the Malifaux Hat store?
You should ask the Mad Hatter, I wonder if there was one in this world ^^.

-Ropetus

[icemantis99]

Heh. Its a ranking system. Your hat awesomeness quotient determines your power.

[Extinction Angel]

Just like hairstyle in anime!

Can any of the beta peeps give some vague allusions as to whether Collete will work well with any Book 1 stuff, or will it be better to keep her working with book 2 minions?

[Headcase2]

Just like hairstyle in anime!

Can any of the beta peeps give some vague allusions as to whether Collete will work well with any Book 1 stuff, or will it be better to keep her working with book 2 minions?
NDA's still in effect, so no. :tapedshut

[Sobek]

Quoting something along the lines that someone posted about the new Resurrectionist Master, it's probably safe to say this about Colette without giving anything away that would violate NDA. Colette's playstyle will be very unique and challenging.

[thaehl]

I sincerely hope the mannequins operate much like the viks.

[Angus Khan]

Can any of the beta peeps give some vague allusions as to whether Collete will work well with any Book 1 stuff, or will it be better to keep her working with book 2 minions?

Without getting specific, I would say Colette would work with other Arcanist minions, but also has some unique synergy with her own themed minions.

Is that vague enough for you? :D

[Extinction Angel]

Hell that's much more than I thought I would get. :)

I would have settled for yes/no.

[Necrotix]

Pre-ordered the box and new book from an online store I've used in the past. Don't care if they aren't out till end of Aug in the UK, I know I'll be getting mine!

[Lucidicide]

Without getting specific, I would say Colette would work with other Arcanist minions, but also has some unique synergy with her own themed minions.

Is that vague enough for you? :D

Hahaha. So what you're saying is... she is like basically everything else that's been released? "There are many things you could do, but she has some unique abilities with certain models."

Beautifully vague in that I would expect that, but also quite tantalizing. I give you credit, sir.

[Angus Khan]

Hahaha. So what you're saying is... she is like basically everything else that's been released? "There are many things you could do, but she has some unique abilities with certain models."

Beautifully vague in that I would expect that, but also quite tantalizing. I give you credit, sir.

*bows*

:D

[Q'iq'el]

A practical question - from the actual line up, does it make more sense to go for Steampunk Arachnid swarms for her, or is she more into wild animals?

I can't help the image of all those mannequins charging, murdering the audience with the little spiders swarming at their feet and Colette's manic laughter ringing in the hall as she kicks Lady J's head, one of the spiders has been "recycling".

In other words Arachnids seem to fit my theme... do they fit the rules though? :D

[Lucidicide]

A practical question - from the actual line up, does it make more sense to go for Steampunk Arachnid swarms for her, or is she more into wild animals?

That, sir, is a pretty amazing question all on its own.

[ProdigalPunk]

A practical question - from the actual line up, does it make more sense to go for Steampunk Arachnid swarms for her, or is she more into wild animals?

I can't help the image of all those mannequins charging, murdering the audience with the little spiders swarming at their feet and Colette's manic laughter ringing in the hall as she kicks Lady J's head, one of the spiders has been "recycling".

In other words Arachnids seem to fit my theme... do they fit the rules though? :D

Although I have no inside info if I had to take a guess I would assume she is more like Tina in that she really does not care about the Creature Type, she probably will just go with her little cliche, and then what ever floats your boat.

[Angus Khan]

A practical question - from the actual line up, does it make more sense to go for Steampunk Arachnid swarms for her, or is she more into wild animals?

I can't help the image of all those mannequins charging, murdering the audience with the little spiders swarming at their feet and Colette's manic laughter ringing in the hall as she kicks Lady J's head, one of the spiders has been "recycling".

In other words Arachnids seem to fit my theme... do they fit the rules though? :D


Well, Colette isn't Ramos, so the synergy with the spiders (per Ramos) isn't there... however they are Arcanist models, so she can certainly use them. That said, after seeing the models, why would you ever want anything other than her themed crew? :D

[Q'iq'el]

Well, Colette isn't Ramos, so the synergy with the spiders (per Ramos) isn't there... however they are Arcanist models, so she can certainly use them. That said, after seeing the models, why would you ever want anything other than her themed crew? :D

Oh I do want her themed crew... That's the reason behind the question.

The starter box and the extra blister is what I want to order for sure. There's not much besides it in the first wave of releases and I have no other Arcanist models though.

So there's the issue of ordering models that would allow me to construct one solid crew, reasonably in-theme, for the time being.

I've already resolved to scratch-build her totem. If other crews are any indicator, her box is probably around 20~25 points and the Coryphée make it 30ish... One more blister and I'm sitting at 35 safely, but what to take?

A cerberus may fit the performance and frankly, who doesn't want to see the re-enactment of the clandestine performances from "La maison de rendez-vous"... :inlove:

But at the same time a swarm of mechanical toys may be more fitting for an illusionist master specializing in animating Manequins etc. :hypnotize

In other words, the former goes with the Burlesque theme, the later is a more of a trickster-illusionist play.

Which one fits her better? I'm leaning to the later, but I wonder about the former.

And I perfectly understand it can be more or less informed speculation at best, at this time. ;)

[Angus Khan]

Hmmm.. interesting question...

According to the tidbits of fluff I've heard (which is next to nothing) I would take a guess and say that the spiders are more themed to Colette, since her primer talks about her being involved with the M&SU. However, I'm seriously thinking about getting a Cerberus now and painting it like a tiger for a more burlesque style crew... ;)

[JakubT]

I'm pretty sure that we are way overdue with her spoilers. Can someone just post her rules wink wink

[TheBugKing]

I'm pretty sure that we are way overdue with her spoilers. Can someone just post her rules wink wink


:ban:

[Omenbringer]

I'm pretty sure that we are way overdue with her spoilers. Can someone just post her rules wink wink

Shouldn't have to wait more then 7 days.

[Q'iq'el]

Shouldn't have to wait more then 7 days.

Some of us live so far away though, we'll either have to order blind, or steal a donut from a child and sacrifice it at the hour of first post from the Gencon, in hope of entering a clairvoyant trance guiding our pointers to the right clicks. :evil:


And if that didn't convince you, think about Dumbledore! Would've he died if he had seen the spoilers?! No!

Spoilers save lives!

[JakubT]

I still get her regardless but wait is always killing me. Earliest I can get this stuff will be 3 weeks after gen con so a spoiler will get the blood pumping :)

And now that we have her card shown the blood is PUMPING

[theHman]

I play Ramos exclusively and I gotta be honest, I really wasn't all that excited or interested in Colette and girls at all when Nathan released the GC teaser pics.

Why get showgirls when I can get undead hookers?

And when I was comparing Colette to the other releases, especially Kirai, I had even less enthusiasm for her. However now that her card has been "released" I have to admit that my mind has completely changed.

Now I'm really excited to expand my Ramos crew with some sexy showgirls with big swords and other trickery!

[shekbo]

Where is her card, exactly?

[Koali]

Just look to the announcments... but here they are... youst for you... :D

http://www.wyrd-games.net/Display/ColetteCard-1.jpg

http://www.wyrd-games.net/Display/ColetteCard-2.jpg

[deadboy]

Does anyone know anything about the Coryphee? I have a friend going to gen con but he doesn't know the game. I won't have the rules in time to know if I NEED them or even how many of them I can use.

[Lucidicide]

Does anyone know anything about the Coryphee? I have a friend going to gen con but he doesn't know the game. I won't have the rules in time to know if I NEED them or even how many of them I can use.

Unless something has changed they are Rare 2. And I don't think I ever ran Colette without one... not saying you couldn't, but you know.

[Teal]

At least two, as they come in a pack of two. Wyrd hasn't released a pack of models where you can't feasibly use all of them in your crew at once, so I'd stick to a single pack if you wanted to be safe.

Also, couldn't you just have your friend give you a call when he's at the Malifaux booth, and then walk him through the process of figuring out if the Coryphee are rare units?

EDIT: Oop, beaten to the punch

[deadboy]

Yeah, I was wondering if they were like Ronin where you REALLY want them in your appropriate Master crew or if they were just nice but not nesc.

And while I COULD try to have him call me from the floor of Gen Con he'd have to get a rule book (I'm ordering mine from the website to get the Miss Pack) from somewhere, have him read it to me then if it's not rare 2 figure out if I need more than just 1 blister, etc. It's def worth the shot that someone could tell me if it's rare and useful.

[Lucidicide]

Yeah, I was wondering if they were like Ronin where you REALLY want them in your appropriate Master crew or if they were just nice but not nesc.

I wouldn't quite compare them to Ronin in level of need. It depends on how you want to play her. I was specifically testing certain aspects of her crew when I played her. If you are fielding her, there are definitely certain strategies where you'll want at least 1.

[deadboy]

Well, when I compare them to ronin I just mean is it something that should be in the box but isn't. Or is it just something that you'll want if you play a certain style. Or maybe it's just a really cool model with not great rules. Knowing that it's Rare 2 and I can get both of them in one blister makes it a no brainer.



On a side note, the Viktoria box has got to be the wonkiest most ineffective starter box out there. And that's counting the Somer Teeth one.

[TimeLapse]

I do agree, I would have done the following for the boxset.
Both Viktoria,
Ronin x3
and
the con. gunslinger, hans or Misaki

And there you have your list.

[Lucidicide]

I do agree, I would have done the following for the boxset.
Both Viktoria,
Ronin x3
and
the con. gunslinger, hans or Misaki

And there you have your list.

I believe the Ronin came out after the box set.

[TimeLapse]

yeah but we were talking about a box set that was playable, like the onther boxsets out there you use most if not all of the models from the box in your army save the Vic box where i only use one of the pricey models in my list and leave johan and biship aside, I was talking about the best box set, with the idea of playing box vs box.

[Lucidicide]

yeah but we were talking about a box set that was playable, like the onther boxsets out there you use most if not all of the models from the box in your army save the Vic box where i only use one of the pricey models in my list and leave johan and biship aside, I was talking about the best box set, with the idea of playing box vs box.

Yeah I know. I was referring to why the Ronin wouldn't have been in the box. But we finally get the Leveticus box, they might do updates of boxes or provide multiple options... we'll see.

I hope Wyrd takes a bit of a breather on new stuff so they can get to all the stuff they've already got planned!

[deadboy]

I believe the Ronin came out after the box set.

Well, maybe they could have waited on it like they did the Leveticus box. But I'm getting off topic. thanks for the info on the Coryphee.

[TimeLapse]

Yeah, though the Vik box is an exeption to there boxsets, I dont think any other game company has done better with army boxes then wyrd. I do want them to finish the book one models before thy dive full force in book two as well, i want the hooded rider! But since they are lose with proxy models Im okay with waiting since I can proxy till its out.

-Andrew

[alemon]

Anyone with a better set of eyes or the book/rule card, does cassandra have a gunblade type thing?

[Omenbringer]

No Cassandra has a regular old (ok mayba a shiny new) sword.

[dakrulz55]

so its a sword with a brass knuckle/halfa gear thingy? boo.... does she ad least have good stats to match her looks atleast?

[Chev Chelios]

Does anyone know why the Performer and the Mannequin are sold together?

[alemon]

They probably have abilities that play off each other...?

I'm not sure. But it's probably a cool reason. I'm going to have to wait two more weeks to find out what those are, though.... D:

[Lalochezia]

Does anyone know why the Performer and the Mannequin are sold together?

You pay 5 soul stones and get one of each when selecting crew.

[alemon]

You pay 5 soul stones and get one of each when selecting crew.


Are they effectively one model, then?

[Chev Chelios]

The reason I ask is the Mannequin Replacement trigger. you might need a few extra Mannequins.Albeit that trigger is going to be rare.

[KrispyXIV]

I got my Collette at Gencon and played her in Last Scrap; she was a ton of fun. Understanding how Companion works may have let me do a little bit better, but I still managed a couple wins!

I can confirm that the Mannequin and Performers are bought as a single model, but are multiple models for pretty much all other purposes. The Mannequins interactions though, are pretty much across the board applicable to Showgirls in general though, which makes things very interesting...

[Magno]

Does anyone know why the Performer and the Mannequin are sold together?

Because maniquins work off of any showgirl. Their triggers and links don't say "Performers", it says showgirls.

So I played a few games with this crew but unfortunately it was against Lady Justice and with her blind Justice, there isn't a whole lot to do with this crew. Anyone that has abilities that say "Ignore WP duels no matter what" are going to handicap a showgirl crew.

Cassandra is the main offense in this list and she can reactivate everytime a showgirl dies which is awesome. I forsee a LOT of "Breathe Fire" casting being done.

I like how they designed this crew, they're showgirls and they will be doing a lot of dancing around the table. Very manouvreable crew.

[alemon]

So do the mannequins have the showgirl type?

[KrispyXIV]

So do the mannequins have the showgirl type?

Indeed, as do all of the models in the theme.

[Goldstep]

Honestly unless you are having a brilliant game, you likely will lose at least one Mannekin before you create a new one.

It's been the same way with Witchlings for me with Criid.
It's what makes the game work so well.

[Jonas Albrecht]

The reason I ask is the Mannequin Replacement trigger. you might need a few extra Mannequins.Albeit that trigger is going to be rare.

I did a test for trying to get that trigger off. If I channelled, I was able to activate it 8 out of 10 times without using my control hand. This was with a fresh deck each time, though.

[Goldstep]

I guess I'm just envisioning Nino or a Mature Nephy or something killing something by the time Colette is at range 8... and I'm also ok will this vision, because I just killed, say Nino or a Mature Nephy and replaced the damage they tried to do.

[Killionaire]

The trick is going to be a bit interesting. You can play Collette in many ways from what I see.

1. Collette can be spamming Mechanical Birds who go out and magician's duel people. She can generate up to two soulstones a turn if your hand is bad, and reliably get one a turn.
2. The Corphyees can be launched up, then activate in-chain with mannequin companion, to drop both Corphyees with Cassandra right on top of an enemy. Have a Mannequin throw up the defense aura, and they're hard as hell to kill (also keep some high cards for those Corphyees!).
3. Let the enemy kill a showgirl and reactivate that Corphyee duet... or watch them not kill her, and inflict a devastating POISON4 on the paralyzed enemy from her lure...

And that's just 'in-theme'. There's a ton of indirect synnergy here that's going to take a lot of time to really get a good feel for. But I'll be damned if her force doesn't have a lot of teleports, slows and paralyzes...

[Killionaire]

Oh yeah, and one more thing. If I'm reading it right, Mannequins are Armor 3, and get an additional 2 points of damage mitigation from Object? So.... if you shoot one for 6 damage, it only takes a single point? Even armor piercing attacks don't ignore the 2 points of mitigation from Object...

Basically, they need to take 3 seperate hits to die, or a direct wound-causing effect it seems...

[mekboyz]

Finally got my collette and friends last night! Along with the book and puppet deck of course. I love these girls already. The poison ring is so good! And the duet can do brutal things. So pumped to play them all weekend

[LoboStele]

Got my Colette box set last night too! Still waiting on some Coryphee's though. But I've got plenty of time while I work on painting all of these up. I'm planning to have some fun with Colette's base and give her a nice magic theme. :)

[Amarel]

Pesky having to wait 'cause I'm in the UK :(.

Colette crew sounds like it gives me the speed of the Vik's bit with more fun in the mix and the Lure of the Belles - ideal :).

[Celenial]

Are you guys playing with the actual Coryphee models or proxy? The reason I am asking is I didn't think they were out until September, and I haven't been able to find them on Wyrd.

[Omenbringer]

The Coryphee were offered for sale at Gencon. Thats where I got my two (didn't want to bother with that whole rare earth magnet thing).

[Celenial]

argh, guess that means that I am going to need to look in a few places, I was really hoping that I was just looking in the wrong place for them, Colette has turned into my new favorite master and I have yet to even play with her.
:blowup:

[Omenbringer]

At least the wait wont be long September is almost here.

[Buddhanutz]

I was just looking at her stats and I can not figure out how disapearing act works. How can you place a model in base to base with a model if the model being placed next to is removed from play? Can someone explain this spell for me? Also, can someone explain how you get the triple tome trigger to go off? Do you have to get lucky with flipping a tome and then spend a soul stone to add a flip to it (on top of the soul stone that you spend to use the spell)?


Thanks everyone

[Jonas Albrecht]

I was just looking at her stats and I can not figure out how disapearing act works. How can you place a model in base to base with a model if the model being placed next to is removed from play? Can someone explain this spell for me? Also, can someone explain how you get the triple tome trigger to go off? Do you have to get lucky with flipping a tome and then spend a soul stone to add a flip to it (on top of the soul stone that you spend to use the spell)?


Thanks everyone

It goes like this.

KAPOW! In a cloud of smoke, Nino Ortega disappears. (Colette casts Disappearing Act and Nino fails his resist).

Annoyed, Perdita shoots Colette to death. (Perdita shoots Colette to death).

Before you remove Colette from play, you place Nino in base contact with her. You then remove Colette.




As for the triple tomes, that gets into some card theory. Needless to say, it requires spending a soulstone to trigger. Collete's Soulstone Augury will make getting that third tome much more likely.

[Buddhanutz]

Thanks for the colorful explanation, but what is the point in that? Is it just to bury the model so that it does not activate? Not quite worth a soulstone.

[Jonas Albrecht]

Thanks for the colorful explanation, but what is the point in that? Is it just to bury the model so that it does not activate? Not quite worth a soulstone.

Removing a character from play for a turn is a huge advantage, especially with the six turn set up Malifaux uses.

Add to the fact that Colette basically prints soulstones, and you have a fantastic power that should be going off each turn. Hell, you can make it go off five times a turn, which should hand you the game fairly easily.

[Wodschow]

Funny.. I consider it one of the best spells in the game, when you count the two triggers at least.

Stealing an enemys activation aswell as moving them quite a distance is indeed a very (!) powerful ability.
There's more to it than that however, gambling a bit allows you to even sacrifice an enemy model instantly AND you summon a minion yourself. Crazy~!

If you don't wanna gamble and waste soulstones, just cheat in high masks, the spell is still a really good one and there's no loss to it then.

[Celenial]

Thanks for the colorful explanation, but what is the point in that? Is it just to bury the model so that it does not activate? Not quite worth a soulstone.

Just like Jonas said Colette is the last Master that needs to worry about using soulstones:
The first one she uses each turn is free thanks to Artificial Soulstone. Use a high mask to kill an enemy with Discharge Soulstone near Colette and you will receive two free soulstones.

Plus in concern with the Mannequin Replacement consider this scenario. of Colette vs Peacekeeper/Mature Nephilim/Killjoy/etc.
Channel disappearing act, this gives you a plus two flip, then use a real soulstone to give you another flip, plus two flip again thanks to Soulstone Augury. You've flipped four cards so far and can still cheat fate should you need to. Even if this is a bust for a mannequin you should most likely still get another soulstone from the other trigger.

[Buddhanutz]

Good points and thanks for the feedback. However, if I remember corectly the buried model is placed within 6" of collette at the begining of the next round. That is quite a risk. ( I have to reread the spoiliers to make sure I am correct on that part; I don't want to waste everyone's time).

[Jonas Albrecht]

Good points and thanks for the feedback. However, if I remember corectly the buried model is placed within 6" of collette at the begining of the next round. That is quite a risk. ( I have to reread the spoiliers to make sure I am correct on that part; I don't want to waste everyone's time).

No, that's the best part. Then you put the returning model in base contact with Cassandra.

[Celenial]

No, that's the best part. Then you put the returning model in base contact with Cassandra.

Or if you want to be very mean, teleport them directly onto some hazardous terrain.:boom:

[Jonas Albrecht]

Or if you want to be very mean, teleport them directly onto some hazardous terrain.:boom:

Hah, even better!

[Celenial]

Just wondering, for those that have played with Colette. I am still waiting on my book but I've started putting my crew together in my head and am running into an issue.

How good is Cassandra? The games I typically play are 30-35ss, because of this I can have Cassandra, 2coryphees, and one performer/mannequin. Is that enough? One guy I play against runs Perdita and tends to focus fire... a lot.

[Killionaire]

Cassandra and Coryphee are the main hitting power of your Showgirls list. She's flexible in that she's tougher to kill than one of the Coryphees (stick a Mannequin to her and use that defensive buff!), and she does provide amazing blasts with breathe fire.

Against Perdita, you'd be best trying to get that bonus to your defense flips to force them to blow cards to beat you. The Coryphees should duet up to give them more HP against enemy fire, and be teleported into battle if possible.

[Jonas Albrecht]

Cassandra is an impressive, versatile fighter who can strike at enemies without ever having to engage them. There's nothing I would rather spend those nine soulstones on that her.

[LoboStele]

It goes like this.

KAPOW! In a cloud of smoke, Nino Ortega disappears. (Colette casts Disappearing Act and Nino fails his resist).

Annoyed, Perdita shoots Colette to death. (Perdita shoots Colette to death).

Before you remove Colette from play, you place Nino in base contact with her. You then remove Colette.

This is of course, if she doesn't make use of her Slow to Die action and take the place of one of her Mannequins. :P

And yeah, Cassandra and the Coryphees are beastly when being teleported around the map and such. However, winning initiative seems to be big with those pieces. They have few enough wounds that an opponent using some Companion tactics can easily take one of them out on the first activation of the round (thinking companioned Ortegas or Viks for instance).

[Celenial]

I know it doesn't make any real since and it was pure luck, but I just am not afraid of the Vics ever since I devoured both of them in one turn using my hoarcats... good times :nutkick:

Ortegas though are a completely different story... they scare me :AR15firin:afraid::rocketwho

[Killionaire]

Okay, so I got in a bit of play with the group... and holy crap, are they deadly.

Colette vs Lilith ended really badly for Lilith.

I linked a Mannequin to Cassandra and a Coryphee, and generated two Soulstones with Collette (using Reactivate and Manipulate Soulstone) turn 1. The team advanced, one Corphyee to each side of the field. Cassandra rushed forward towing her mannequin, since the enemy didn't have shooting, and since she's immune to melee for two turns.

Turn two opened with a Mannequin generating the no-weak damage aura, and then Cassandra using her southern charm to go and gank a few terror tot Nephs and get into melee with Lilith. She hits Lilith (using a Soulstone to do so), doing some damage. The trigger went off, and she got a breathe fire off that tags Lilith for 3, who cancelled it with a soulstone to heal. The corphyees and rest of the gang advance, and Colette generates a soulstone and makes a mechanical dove, which flew up into position. Charm protects Cassandra against every single one of Lilith's attacks (even if Lilith drew a 13, I was ready to soulstone to dodge it).

Next turn, Cassandra hits Lilith again and burns another terror tot. A corphyee gets charged by Teddy and Baby Kade, but makes it out due to the plus flips and cheats. A Showgirl runs up to support Cassandra. The Mature charges the Showgirl, but fails to kill her. A Corphyee moves up and does some decent damage to the Mature. The Mechanical Dove goes and hits Lilith with a Magician's duel (eat that, CA5->3 Lilith). Teddy kills one Corphyee. Lilith misses Cassandra repeatedly due to Southern Charm.

Last turn, I have cassandra nail Lilith AGAIN once, then used most of the misc. stuff. Collette gains reactivate, beams to swap places with the 1 HP Showgirl in melee with the mature, nails the Mature once with a Magician's duel. Next, she reactivates, generates a swan, hits the mature again and beams to swap places with the other Corphyee. The swan hits the Mature, immediately killing it. The Corphyee and Cassandra then gang up and beat the snot out of Lilith.

She's absolutely deadly, and that kind of mobility (and defense power) of her crew incredible.

[Jonas Albrecht]

That was a joy to read.

[Nutcase168]

I think Collete is a great answer for high def models.

[mylastnerv]

She was one of the hardest crews to finalize the rules for, I think because we really wanted to make the rules reflect how cool the miniatures were shaping up to be. Let hope we managed it!

I think you guys did an amazing job on making that happen.

[mylastnerv]

Geeeez, I can't wait to get my hands on this box.

[Celenial]

So glad to hear that Colette can mop the floor with Lilith. I have yet to beat my friend that plays her.

[alemon]

I thought the coryphee couldn't get charged?

[Killionaire]

I thought the coryphee couldn't get charged?

So they can't. Forgot a beneficial rule.

Admittedly, the Showgirls Sets have sooooo many damn rules, it's incredibly hard to keep track of them. I used to think Leveticus was difficult to figure out, but this takes the cake easy.

[13th Warrior]

Got my first game in with Colette yesterday (bit of a marathon, trying to work out all the rules and combinations, so thanks to everyone who endured that!).

I just used the box set and a Dove, giving Colette 5ss to start with in a 25ss scrap. All I can say is that I doubt I'll get too many games in with her - people are going to hate her! She moves round so fast it makes your head spin - in one turn she was in melee with 3 or 4 models, killed one with Magician's Duel, took reactivate, got attacked, activated her Df trigger, swapped out with Cassandra, then reactivated, swapped Cassandra back out, then swapped with a mannequin linked to a performer, the performer activated next and when she finished her activation the mannequin snapped to her with link. At the end of the turn Colette's entire crew was more than 12" away from the combat, with 3 separate models having moved / pushed / swapped over 24"!

Magician's Duel is phenomenal - pick on the little guys, kill them, gain a soulstone, use the free ss to reactivate, bounce about the board, maybe kill something else with Magician's Duel, gain another ss, or just go for Manipulation, bin two low cards, gain a ss - I think by turn 3 I'd used 11 soulstones, and still had 4 in the pool!

And because the mannequins have Companion (showgirl), if you need to you can activate pretty much her entire crew simultaneously - which is like watching a pinball with about 6 balls in play!

I'm not saying she's unbeatable - as someone pointed out, her crew is fairly fragile once it's pinned down, but pinning them down is just so damn difficult - but she's going to give a lot of people a lot of headaches.

I think she's a brilliant master with some amazing rules, and very different to almost every other master out there (some similarities to Pandora maybe)

[Teal]

My LGS is getting all of their Book 2 stuff in today, so my plan is to buy and assemble Collete and friends as quickly as possible and give her a spin against one of my usual opponents. If it doesn't go too embarrassingly for me (just kidding, I hope) I'll post up an after action report and review of how it went.

[alemon]

Just played my first game with colette. It was a 25ss game, so I stuck to the box set. First thought was: Cassandra's a beast. She's fast, hits a lot and hits hard, and threatens just about everyone. I played against gremlins and kirai (I know, ,a three person game). It was easy to attack the gremlins with the sword and the spirits with firebreath to deal full damage. First turn, She got just shy of melee with Remi, who was on a building. Second turn, She chased him down and killed him, along with wounding ophelia and some other kin. then, because of her sublime performance spell, pushed and walked enough to reach an objective across the map, take it, tank a kin onslaught and being chased by spirits (with one wound, being able to use soulstones is amazing). Most definitely the MVP

Colette I didn't trust too much to disengage once models got into melee with her, but it wasn't a problem because should could just swap with a performer or mannequin 18" away, completing another objective in the process.

I spread my forces too thin, But I was pleasantly surprised at how mobile cassandra and colette are, how difficult the mannequins are to kill, and how annoying paralyze and poison 4 are.


One thing--the crew burns soulstones fast. To cause some serious shennanigans with cassandra is fun but she uses alot of stones, and if colette isn't making soulstones she's using them, so most of the time while she breaks even her other models use them up. I'm probably gonna start with some doves next game, and not take the "Perfect Performance" scheme.

[Q'iq'el]

As a near-future Colette player, I must say I'm more interested in battle reports where Colette has been beaten to pulp, than the easy victories against opponents who haven't learned how to counter her yet.

Just saying. :D

[ProdigalPunk]

As a near-future Colette player, I must say I'm more interested in battle reports where Colette has been beaten to pulp, than the easy victories against opponents who haven't learned how to counter her yet.

Just saying. :D

Good luck with that she seems to be a beast, and Casandra is no joke at all. She is 9 ss of pure win I think.

[Q'iq'el]

Good luck with that she seems to be a beast, and Casandra is no joke at all. She is 9 ss of pure win I think.

I think she's a master with many tools and nasty tricks. But I bet there are tricks to make her really worried too, just like in Pandora's case, for example.

I have got no experience playing her yet, but her crew does seem easy to dismantle if you focus on killing it model by model. Ability to teleport things around is surely a counter to that, but when the entire crew has average Df and very low wounds, a model the opponent has focused on may simply not live long enough to get any help. Especially if the opponent has any larger Simultaneous Activation groups.


I want to see her weak points. Strengths are relatively easy to figure out - as a Colette player, I think I'd better know what to watch for.

[Jonas Albrecht]

Yeah, Colette has a lot of early board control, so players should really focus on having her complete objectives as soon as possible. Fast groups, like the Ortegas, can really dismantle her troupe.

[alemon]

Alright, well then to add to her crew's weaknesses: Anything that ignores armor pretty much wrecks the mannequins. Also, terrifying, while easy to resist, breaks though the mannequin's harmless, as well as Cassandra's Sultry. The performer's irresistible can't be ignored, but it shouldn't be too tough with decent wp characters.

I'm not sure whether Colette needs LOS to swap or not, but if she does, pushing effects (toss aside, obey, etc.) ruin this layer of defense as well. Cassandra is one tough cookie, and lots of companion strikes will probably take her down, though the kin didn't seem to do so well.

Also, Sonnia counters Colette pretty much outright, or at least demotes her to a support model.

There's also a chance that you'll spread your crew too thin or not far enough. In the first case, you'll leave easy targets to FF. In the second, swapping won't do much for those set on killing your models one by one, and won't give you much board control.

Also....Soulstones.

[Celenial]

Alemon thanks for your insight. I've been wondering just what to avoid or what crews will give me a hard time with her.

Has anyone played her against a good Ortega player and won, and if so how did you deal with them?

[ProdigalPunk]

I have only played her once, and I got destroyed (I was using Karia for the first time) I think I have some ideas to do better next time.

1) Strike hard and strike fast. Pick one model and go all out against it. If you let stuff get away it is as good as back to full. Her crew also seems to sort of nickle and dime you as well, so I think opponents can leave their crews exposed a little more without worrying about being dismantled by an alpha strike.

2) Isolate, isolate isolate. Her crew can move things around like crazy, but if you can separate someone from that pack they do not have a lot of survivability.

3) Bring a heavy. Her crew has a solid stat line, the only stat is on the weaker side is wounds. For the most part a good shot from a heavy could down anyone in her crew. They are hard to hit (I think focused strikes might be the best shot) but like before I don't think you want to spread your hand out, just use whatever good cards you have on that turn to deal with one threat. Next turn new hand new threat.

4) Rekindle my love affair with Bete. A well placed Bete should be able to take Colette without much problem (or at least take out her SS cache). Plus I think once she is paralyzed no trigger for her, and I don't think she can use her slow to die action, meaning she will need to rely on soulstones to prevent damage, which is much nicer then using them to heal damge.

That is the game plan anyway.

[alemon]

Why is it better to use a soulstone to heal than to prevent damage? You have to use an action to heal, while preventing you can use whenever you're damaged...right?

[Shinigami]

hmm wel with a healing flip its possible to heal all your lost wounds lost durign the battle with a lucky (or well places with card control) red joker

also i think she has slow to die? giving her a free AP to spend if she dies thus allowing her to do a healing flip for free and not die,

tough i tought she had more special actions she can take, i havent really looked over her rules yet

[Wodschow]

If you have 1~2 Wd left and you receive a hit for 3~4 Dg then prevention won't do much good.

Just let yourself die and use the Slow to Die action on eating a Soulstone and you're back at 1~2 Wd.

[Q'iq'el]

If you're going to use a Soulstone, use it to change the Starting Total. Preventing the hit altogether is ALWAYS better than reducing damage, or healing afterwards, and Colette has a rather nice Df trigger that can go off if she manages to win Df duel.

In fact I'd argue she has better Df than Lilith herself, albeit dependent on proximity of other showgirls.

[Wodschow]

If you are already low on wounds and you aren't dead certain that you'll win the duel then I'd rather just die and heal afterwards..

That might just be me though.

Also.. Are you certain that she have to win the duel in order for her trigger to go off?

I thought it just happened at the end of the strike resolution since it doesn't specify when it happens, and I believe that is where triggers default to. Not entirely sure on that one though.

[Q'iq'el]

If you are already low on wounds and you aren't dead certain that you'll win the duel then I'd rather just die and heal afterwards..

That might just be me though.

It costs you a showgirl to do that. Mannequin may seem an obvious choice, as you can try to bring it back later, but a Mannequin is so low on Wounds it won't do much of healing. Either way you sacrifice a model and Colette's crew isn't exactly cheap. It's easier to get Soulstones with her, than to get a Mannequin back.


Also.. Are you certain that she have to win the duel in order for her trigger to go off?

I thought it just happened at the end of the strike resolution since it doesn't specify when it happens, and I believe that is where triggers default to. Not entirely sure on that one though.

I'm certain I've been wrong on that. You are right. She doesn't even have to win - all she has to do is cheat with a tome and the opponent is Slow and fighting another Showgirl. Of course if you can avoid the damage on the top of that, it's even better.

As for the resolution... Here's a controversial thought -> if there's no timing mentioned, shouldn't it trigger immediately?

Wouldn't that mean she can break out of an Opposed Duel before it comes to applying damage (right after determining her Starting Total and announcing the trigger), even if the opponent has won the duel?

Either way that is one of the best Df triggers I've seen. If your opponent has Flurry, it may be wasted after first Strike, so it makes no sense to even risk using it. If he does normal Strike, he may get Slow and lose his second AP. Even if he's Fast or Melee Expert, the model will have to use that one last AP against a showgirl that swapped places with Colette - a waste of activation.

It even works against spells that use Rst: Df. She can trigger it against Rasputina's December's Curse or Ramos' Electrical Fire for example.

Normally Df triggers offer buffs, debuffs or counter-strikes, but don't guarantee success. This one simply cannot go wrong if you only get a tome in your flip or cheat.

I'm beginning to wonder if that crew isn't heading for Pandora's treatment. With so many synergies and tricks, there must be some that are unintended and will result in adjustments.

[ProdigalPunk]

1) She can use her Slow to Die action to just use a soul stone to heal, she does not need to kill a showgirl. That is an option but not the only one. Healing is better because a 10 damage hit on a model with one wd left only does 1 wd, so you can try and prevent 9 or you can just die and then heal from 0. You are right that using a soulstone to just up the df total is the best option, but that is not a garuntee. With your plus to flips it is a good chance, but not 100% certain. Black Joker pops for example.

2) The trigger would go off in the trigger step of combat. It is like the last thing right before the damage flip. In a perfect world if Bete hit, then she would be parlayed and not allowed to activate triggers. So she would just have to stand there and take the other strikes.

[Q'iq'el]

2) The trigger would go off in the trigger step of combat. It is like the last thing right before the damage flip. In a perfect world if Bete hit, then she would be parlayed and not allowed to activate triggers. So she would just have to stand there and take the other strikes.

Bête's ability to give Paralyzed with Severed Spine is an effect on attack, not a trigger. As such, I don't think it's timed on "hit". I think you complete entire duel and only then apply the damage and the paralysis. Even if the damage was entirely mitigated, as long as there was a hit, you apply paralysis, but you don't do it before triggers go off.


Besides, if you play Colette smartly (against a crew with Bête), you'll gain Reactivate first thing after activating her. Even if Bête pops out of Colette's kill and manages to Paralyze her with her first strike, Reactivate and Paralyze simply nullify each other and the trigger will still go off. After that Bête cannot do any more strikes (because of Slow). Granted, it isn't half bad, because Colette loses 2 AP that way, but she won't be Paralyzed.

As I said, Rigor Mortis should be much more effective against her - even if she has Reactivate on her, Nicodem can simply cast it again and her Wp isn't all that high to resist it.

[ProdigalPunk]

You might be right, I am not sure if it would happen immediately on hitting or if it would happen when damage is applied. You bring up a very good point with reactivate too, I should probably try to time it so she is on her second activation before I bring Bete Out. Bete is placed though she is not summoned, so you she does not have slow when she pops out. If you are lucky enough to get Colette stuck there she will get three swings at her with ca 6 paired, so it is a pretty even fight, although Colette has the SS advantage.

[Q'iq'el]

Bete is placed though she is not summoned, so you she does not have slow when she pops out. If you are lucky enough to get Colette stuck there she will get three swings at her with ca 6 paired, so it is a pretty even fight, although Colette has the SS advantage.

I know she doesn't get Slow from summoning. Colette's Df trigger gives Slow if it goes off, as well as teleporting Colette herself. As I said, it is the best trigger I've ever seen - very easy to get off, reliably saves her life and messes up the opponent on the top of that.

So if you Flurry Colette will teleport after first swing, give Bête Slow and provide her with a fresh target (showgirl Colette switched with) which Bête cannot attack ([b]Flurry[b] Attacks must go against the original target). On the top of that you waste a Control Card to activate Flurry.

If Bête doesn't risk it and uses regular Strike against Colette, Colette will still Slow her and teleport - not only no more strikes against Colette, but you lose the remaining AP.


The only thing that would prevent Colette from doing that is lack of Tomes. Considering she can use any Tome in her Control Hand (even if she loses the Duel she still teleports to safety) and considering that her Soulstone flip is on :+fate, the likelihood of her getting at least 1 tome and still winning the duel is high enough for Bête player not to want spending Control Card on Flurry IMHO.

Taking away that second activation is probably the best Bête can do against Colette... if it is the second reactivation, she may Paralyze her indeed, but if Bête goes for Severed Spine her damage output suffers somewhat and Colette may survive it anyway.

Last but not least, Colette is not the only tricky model in her crew. Any Mannequin can summon her (from 12" apart) or heal her (from 3"), thus removing her from direct contact with Bête and helping her survive till the Pralyzed goes away.

[Wodschow]

Hmm.. Wasn't thinking of using her (1)Death Defying (which I consider largely uselss) with her slow-to-die action.. Merely (1)Heal that all Soulstone Users have. PP pointed that out though I think.
Yes there's currently four Soulstone Users with Slow-to-Die (Colette, Molly, Lucius, Von Schill), can't take them down till they run out of stones..

As for the timing I think I saw in one of the lists BugKing or another of the all knowing guys once posted that triggers not specifying time go off at the last thing during the strike. This is just what I faintly recall though.


Really wish they posted those timing tables in the extra errata or in the FAQ as they are so ever useful!

[Q'iq'el]

Well, there are models Colette has no chance winning with in the long run. Flipping a stone for (1)Heal may be a good choice most of the time, but if there's another strike or two comming, you'll have to spend 2~3 SS to stay alive and then you're still stuck in melee with model(s) you have little chance of beating.

The value of flipping Red Joker on the healing flip is also greatly diminished by the fact you get only 6Wd out of it.

Instead you can use Death Defying to get into safe range. If you sacrifice a Mannequin to do it and have hand good enough, you can even hope to bring the Mannequin back and remove the tough-to-beat model on the way. SS cost will be similar, but you're in an entirely new tactical situation, why the original one was hopeless anyway.

[Wodschow]

You could still cheat in a tome on the first hit. Would leave both Colette and a Showgirl alive, even if the Showgirl might soon die it's better than killing her yourself imho.

[Q'iq'el]

You could still cheat in a tome on the first hit. Would leave both Colette and a Showgirl alive, even if the Showgirl might soon die it's better than killing her yourself imho.

Yup. The awesomness of that trigger is what we've been discussing for the last few pages. :D

Isn't that the best Df trigger ever? It just can't fail.

[ProdigalPunk]

Yup. The awesomness of that trigger is what we've been discussing for the last few pages. :D

Isn't that the best Df trigger ever? It just can't fail.

Funny you should mention that. In my recent brainstorming I realized all those nice new little spirits our rezzers get can target Df or Wp. So I think Karia will be a little tricky when she summons some right on you and your Df trigger is useless. She will still be rather hard to hit, and has a lot of ways to get away, but that is one more weakness to try to exploit.

[Q'iq'el]

Funny you should mention that. In my recent brainstorming I realized all those nice new little spirits our rezzers get can target Df or Wp. So I think Karia will be a little tricky when she summons some right on you and your Df trigger is useless. She will still be rather hard to hit, and has a lot of ways to get away, but that is one more weakness to try to exploit.

Well, no Df trigger works against Wp, so it's a common trait and not particular drawback of this one. Other Df trigger Masters will be in just as bad position against Wp based attacks if not worse (considering Colette gets more out of her soulstones).

Colette does the same with her Magician's Duel attack - she turns melee fight into Ca->Ca duel, so no Df trigger will activate against it.

[Chanst]

Just wanted to add my two soulstones worth. She was the first master I picked up (just got into the game at GenCon) and I am having a blast with her. Of course I am still learning the ins and outs of the game in general, and she certainly has a lot on her card to take in.

Using her as pure support seems to work alright for me (depending on the strategy). Her ability to just gain soulstones that pretty much her whole crew has access to is pretty awesome. Cassandra with 2 Breathe Fires or a 12" threat range Magician's Duel from a dove has a lot of potential. I have played against Kirai in the games, and her list is very effective against spirits.

She can really be a powerhouse herself in melee, though that tends to burn through soulstones fast, and you have to make sure to keep at least a mannequin around a corner for her to be able to back off from a pending counterattack. Overall, I really like her, and think that she can do well in most strategies.

[alemon]

Do you need line of sight to use illusionist or Dance partner?

[LoboStele]

There was a thread in the Rules area asking about that. I don't think a Marshall ever weighed in on it, but the general consensus is that you didn't need LOS as most abilities are pretty clear when you do/don't need LOS to utilize the ability.

[ProdigalPunk]

Do you need line of sight to use illusionist or Dance partner?

If it says target, you need line of sight. If it does not mention target, and just gives a specific situation, then you do not need los.

Switch with target showgirl = need los

switch with showgirl or switch two show girls within 12" = no los

[alemon]

ah, alright. I don't have access to the book right now, but I'll make sure to look at that.

Chanst, I tend to use her for support as well and let Cassandra kick butt with the soulstones

[Chanst]

Illusionist says 'switch this model and one friendly showgirl within 18 inches', so as far as I can tell, you don't need LoS. That's the way we have been playing it.

[Q'iq'el]

Ehh... It doesn't need to mention target to require target. A friendly showgirl within 18" *IS* an individual target you have to choose and thus you do require LOS.

Spells that don't require target are auras and pulses. Spells that affect everyone within x" while not being one of the two simply have multiple targets (and targets are affected only if in LoS).


It's safer to assume you require LoS for everything except for pulses and auras.

And if you need some RAW, first sentence in "Spell Basics" on the page 62 of the rulebook. (exceptions for auras and pulses are on page 25).

Otherwise spell needs to specifically state it doesn't require LoS.

[Lalochezia]

Ehh... It doesn't need to mention target to require target. A friendly showgirl within 18" *IS* an individual target you have to choose and thus you do require LOS.

Spells that don't require target are auras and pulses. Spells that affect everyone within x" while not being one of the two simply have multiple targets (and targets are affected only if in LoS).


It's safer to assume you require LoS for everything except for pulses and auras.

And if you need some RAW, first sentence in "Spell Basics" on the page 62 of the rulebook. (exceptions for auras and pulses are on page 25).

Otherwise spell needs to specifically state it doesn't require LoS.

I am fairly certain you are incorrect on this one.

The first line on pg 62 says, "All spells require LoS to their targets..."

This spell does not state that it does target, therefor, it does not require LoS.

I know I'm arguing semantics here, but that's how rules go sometimes.

[alemon]

Sorta reminds me of MTG rules

[Q'iq'el]

I am fairly certain you are incorrect on this one.

The first line on pg 62 says, "All spells require LoS to their targets..."

This spell does not state that it does target, therefor, it does not require LoS.

I know I'm arguing semantics here, but that's how rules go sometimes.

Won't have access to my book for the next few hours, but I'm pretty sure it is a target, when you select a model to perform an action on. I'd look for the wording in the most basic rules - where attackers, defenders and actions are defined.

The reason why auras and pulses don't have targets is that they affect area rather than models. Models that happen to be in the area suffer or profit from it, but they are not directly targeted. Spells that say they affect every model within x" are targeting directly and not affecting area, so they require LoS. Pretty much everything in this game has a target.


Either way, the basic rules for spells, on the page 62, are pretty clear you don't need LoS only if the description of the spell says so (when it isn't an Aura or Pulse).

[Lalochezia]

Won't have access to my book for the next few hours, but I'm pretty sure it is a target, when you select a model to perform an action on. I'd look for the wording in the most basic rules - where attackers, defenders and actions are defined.

The reason why auras and pulses don't have targets is that they affect area rather than models. Models that happen to be in the area suffer or profit from it, but they are not directly targeted. Spells that say they affect every model within x" are targeting directly and not affecting area, so they require LoS. Pretty much everything in this game has a target.


Either way, the basic rules for spells, on the page 62, are pretty clear you don't need LoS only if the description of the spell says so (when it isn't an Aura or Pulse).

http://www.wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?p=160676#post160676

And now we wait.

[Q'iq'el]

http://www.wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?p=160676#post160676

And now we wait.

I sometimes wonder, if every smallest issue really requires Marshal intervention to resolve? I understand we want to have instant clarification on important matters, but when we overload the Marshals with really simple questions, how can we expect them to focus on the really tough ones, like "what's an effect" or how the "rule of equivalency" really works.


Either way, I think this one can be extrapolated pretty convincingly from how other rules are working and from the design philosophy of the game. Just like every action affecting another model and forcing a duel is an attack, just like you are defender whenever you are forced into a duel by an action... just the same being picked up as the model affected by an ability or spell makes you a target.


What I missed however, when writing my first reply, is that neither Illusionist or Dance Partners are spells. I'm not sure if spell rules for LoS apply to other Abilities at all. Sorry for the confusion.

[Lalochezia]

I sometimes wonder, if every smallest issue really requires Marshal intervention to resolve? I understand we want to have instant clarification on important matters, but when we overload the Marshals with really simple questions, how can we expect them to focus on the really tough ones, like "what's an effect" or how the "rule of equivalency" really works.


Either way, I think this one can be extrapolated pretty convincingly from how other rules are working and from the design philosophy of the game. Just like every action affecting another model and forcing a duel is an attack, just like you are defender whenever you are forced into a duel by an action... just the same being picked up as the model affected by an ability or spell makes you a target.


What I missed however, when writing my first reply, is that neither Illusionist or Dance Partners are spells. I'm not sure if spell rules for LoS apply to other Abilities at all. Sorry for the confusion.

I doubt it took Goblyn more than a minute to type up that reply, and obviously there was confusion about it. I think it was worth a thread. This will come up again, and now a link can simply be posted.

[Killionaire]

I think it's pretty apparent that no 'targetting' is involved at all. You merely switch this model and one friendly showgirl. That's literally the wording. Going by read as worded, this only matters if it said 'Switch this model and target friendly showgirl'.

For example, the 'Precious' ability on the Performer says 'When this model is killed, TARGET friendly showgirl within 4 of this model receives reactivate'.

This is very cut and dry people. Illusionist does not require LOS because it is not a 'target'.

[Chanst]

I think you summed it up well in the other thread, Q'iq'el. I had always been assuming abilities and spells were functioning the same way (mostly because I am a noob to this game) and I think remembering the differences between the two will help me work through many questions to come.

Even if it had required LoS, I think Illusionist is still very nice for keeping her out of trouble. I really need to try her with 3 doves at once to see how the whole 'stirke force' idea works.

[Goldstep]

I'm considering the idea that on turn 1 she might want to summon a dove instead of reactivating on the first turn. That means she would be better to only buy 2 doves -- and start with 2 more soulstones.

Or even to reactivate but spend a soulstone to create a dove with her other activation... but I need to read over cost 0's again before I know if that works. If it does work, it saves one stone... and it's not like you were using the 0 for anything else, right?
Anyone?
:mannequin

[alemon]

I've been reactivating then summoning a dove...but doesn't the spell make you discard two soulstones?

[LoboStele]

You can't use the free soulstone to summon things. But yeah, I think doing Reactivate, then summoning a dove on each activation is a solid move. They only cost 1 SS that way. So, just leave yourself with 6-8 SS to start with, and then dump two on the very first turn. For only having 6 SS left, you'd get 2 doves, as opposed to building them into the crew to start with and only having a cache of 4. ;)

And if you really don't want to give up the soulstones for the Doves, should be easy enough on the first round to dump 2 cards for an extra SS.

[Goldstep]

You can't use the free soulstone to summon things.

Not that I don't believe you, just that I don't recall this...
Do you have a page number. Seeing it on paper helps.

Can you use the free SS for her other abilities?
Ahhhhh! My world is now on it's ear.

[alemon]

Why wouldn't you be able to use the free soulstone to summon her doves? It says discard a soulstone. That's what you do with the artificial soulstone. It's the same as any of her abilities--which you can use her artificial soulstone for.

Unless....Artificial soulstone specifically says you can't use it to summon minions. Which it might say. I don't have the book, but I have a feeling it says something like that.

[Lalochezia]

Unless....Artificial soulstone specifically says you can't use it to summon minions. Which it might say. I don't have the book, but I have a feeling it says something like that.

Yes, it does.

[LoboStele]

Yeah, it's right in the definition in the book. Don't know if it has it that way on the card too, as I don't have them Olin front of me. But I definitely know it's in the book, cause I was reading up on the doves last night.

[alemon]

Yeah, sorry guys. My book and models are at a friend's for safekeeping, so I don't have access to the rules ATM. As I was typing that I had an inkling that I was missing something important.
It does cost two soulstones to summon a dove though, yes?

[LoboStele]

No, only one! Makes me wonder if it will be errata'd. But totally worth it if you're going to plan on spending the first round doing Soulstone Augury and using her first round hand for something useful.

[Q'iq'el]

No, only one! Makes me wonder if it will be errata'd. But totally worth it if you're going to plan on spending the first round doing Soulstone Augury and using her first round hand for something useful.

I doubt it will be changed.

Action Points are just as much of a resource as Soulstones, since you only get a limited pool of them each game.

Instead of paying 2SS, you pay 1SS and 1AP... Merely a tradeoff.

[Killionaire]

Artificial Soulstone specifically says this free soulstone cannot be used in actions that summon a model.

[LastDinosaur]

I doubt it will be changed.

Action Points are just as much of a resource as Soulstones, since you only get a limited pool of them each game.

Instead of paying 2SS, you pay 1SS and 1AP... Merely a tradeoff.

It's a (0) action to summon the dove.. Even if you reactivate you still have a spare (0) action, and it's not like you'd be using the only other (0) action available to Colette during the first turn.

I suppose it could be considered a card drain though.

[Q'iq'el]

Well, (0) actions are even more precious than AP. Even if Colette gets twice the number of activations of normal model (top), she still pays somewhere for that ability, so these (0) actions do not come free.

I'd have to dig into Colette mechanics a bit deeper before I decide for myself, but I think you cannot say 2SS is more expensive than summoning Doves during the game, without wider comparison.

For one, you are going to have to summon Doves anyway (because they are supposed to get sacrificed). At least some of your (0) actions are already assigned to that by default. Remaining (0) actions will be even more precious and there will be occasions you have to use them for something else than summoning Doves. If you pay for 3 Doves in advance, you free up some of these (0) actions. Then you can convert your regular AP and Control Cards into Soulstones if you need them.

I suspect it may be easier to summon Doves early on, so perhaps the pressure on (0) actions isn't all that high... but to say that definitively I'd have to get more practice. I keep hearing about new masters putting heat on opponent as early as turn 2 or even turn 1 - if that happens often, Colette may end up having no time to summon extra Doves.

[Goldstep]

OK... I don't know why that didn't click for me. I thought it meant you can't summon Ronin.
It makes sense now that you say it, but somehow, in my mind it was "Soulstone to cast spell, spell to summon model" Luckily, I have only the book and thus haven't cheated someone with Colette yet.

Still for planning purchases, I think we all agree that 3 doves are needed? Even if we disagree on how many in crew construction.

[LoboStele]

What do you mainly plan to use the doves for? Just magical extension? They don't have as good of a Ca as Colette, so will be harder for them to actually cast stuff.

[Goldstep]

Well, not that colette isn't better at it, but against a CA6 with soulstone use or CA4 without, Magiscians Duel is still really solid. The birds can actually reliably pound Ophelia and are nice for dealing with excess Gaki. And after that you can still sac it for the free soulstone with :+fate for something important like a killing blow from a Blinding or a Siren's call.

All theory, but the rules seem to support it pretty well.

[LastDinosaur]

They have multiple uses..

Magician's Duel can still be nasty on some enemies.

Detonation can also be good against low Df enemies.

Soulstones with :+fate for all Showgirls to use, interesting.

Trick of the Hat might also be considerable in some situations (still haven't thought out all possibilities with this one, could be used to attack anyone anywhere on the table turn one I think, but I don't think the individual Showgirls are resilient enough to have such a tactic to really be considerable).


Also @Q'iq'el: (0) actions for Colette aren't worth all that much (when you reactivate you still get another (0) action so no net loss)...

I think I'd rather have fast than a second (0) action each turn.

[Buddhanutz]

One more question to throw into the mix and I don't want to clog up the slow moving rules furom unless we can't come up with a clear answer.

Does the rule limiting a crew to two mercanaries apply to models that are recruited from within your faction? If so, this limits collette to only two showgirls, which kind of sucks.

Thanks for any comments in adcance.

[Q'iq'el]

One more question to throw into the mix and I don't want to clog up the slow moving rules furom unless we can't come up with a clear answer.

Does the rule limiting a crew to two mercanaries apply to models that are recruited from within your faction? If so, this limits collette to only two showgirls, which kind of sucks.

Thanks for any comments in adcance.

When you hire from your own faction, you don't hire them as mercenaries.

Simply speaking no master can hire out of faction, unless the model is mercenary or the master in question has some special rule allowing out-of-faction hiring. Unless specified otherwise (like in Showgirls' High Class ability) out of faction hiring costs +1SS.

Within the faction though they are regular models any master can hire for nominal price (bar some other special restrictions).

[ProdigalPunk]

One more question to throw into the mix and I don't want to clog up the slow moving rules furom unless we can't come up with a clear answer.

Does the rule limiting a crew to two mercanaries apply to models that are recruited from within your faction? If so, this limits collette to only two showgirls, which kind of sucks.

Thanks for any comments in adcance.

No you hire showgirls as arcanists and not mercenaries, so you can have as many as you want. It is basically the way the Viks work with Outcasts.

[Killionaire]

Doesn't matter much if the Doves only have CA5. If they can get off magician's duel, most targets are going to be easy prey to that. No more than 4 or 5. Even lots of Masters are going to be 5 or less, due to the -2CA vs Soulstone users.

[Lalochezia]

I doubt it will be changed.

Action Points are just as much of a resource as Soulstones, since you only get a limited pool of them each game.

Instead of paying 2SS, you pay 1SS and 1AP... Merely a tradeoff.

BAM!

Colette can connect up to three doves at one time.

Since it is a zero action, at most she can only summon one dove per turn.

So, you can hire no doves at the start and get them cheaper, but not be at maximum dove capacity until turn three, or you can just start out with all of her doves, albeit at a higher price.

[Lalochezia]

Also @Q'iq'el: (0) actions for Colette aren't worth all that much (when you reactivate you still get another (0) action so no net loss)...

I think I'd rather have fast than a second (0) action each turn.

Yeah, but no net gain, either.

With Colette, you essentially get one zero action every turn...just like most models. Technically she does get two, but since one will always be spent to reactivate her (or not, in which case she really does have only one) she has just as many zero actions as everyone else...one per turn.

[Killionaire]

Well Hypothetically, Colette has the potential to activate three times in a turn.

1. She activates normally. Uses Infuse Soulstone to gain reactivate.
2. She uses Reactivate up now to activate again.
3. A nearby performer dies, and grants Colette reactivate with the 'Precious' ability.

[Q'iq'el]

Well Hypothetically, Colette has the potential to activate three times in a turn.

1. She activates normally. Uses Infuse Soulstone to gain reactivate.
2. She uses Reactivate up now to activate again.
3. A nearby performer dies, and grants Colette reactivate with the 'Precious' ability.

I'm not sure if it will work that way. Reactivate is restricted to only once per turn (p46), so I think you cannot gain third reactivation from Precious.

The simple truth is (0) action is a scarce resource for everyone. All the masters have means to get extra Soulstones (albeit desperate ones) and Colette can do it without such a high cost. In such a situation I lean towards 2SS Doves being in practice cheaper than the ones you summon (and you'll have to resumon them anyway).

[LastDinosaur]

Yeah, but no net gain, either.

With Colette, you essentially get one zero action every turn...just like most models. Technically she does get two, but since one will always be spent to reactivate her (or not, in which case she really does have only one) she has just as many zero actions as everyone else...one per turn.

And that one (0) per turn suffices for at least 1~2 Doves during the first two turns of the game. Yes?

As I see things there's little reason to begin with 3 Doves at 2 SS each, which is really what I thought we discussed.

Even if you can get to the enemy on turn one with Colette I don't think it'll be wise of you to do so. Attrition doesn't seem to be her kind of game as she burns out fairly fast.

[Q'iq'el]

And that one (0) per turn suffices for at least 1~2 Doves during the first two turns of the game. Yes?

As I see things there's little reason to begin with 3 Doves at 2 SS each, which is really what I thought we discussed.

Even if you can get to the enemy on turn one with Colette I don't think it'll be wise of you to do so. Attrition doesn't seem to be her kind of game as she burns out fairly fast.

There are plenty of new masters who can easily get to Colette in turn 1 or 2 though, and that's a serious problem.

You start with too few Doves and you may find yourself with your pants down. If your opponent is slow on the other hand, you can easily make up to 4 Soulstones in these two turns (again, easier to make SS than summon doves). Granted, it costs cards, but if you don't fight yet, you don't need your whole hand, do you?

In other words it's less risk to make soulstones early in the game than to try to summon Doves.

[LastDinosaur]

Well in a quiet early game you'd both gather soulstones AND summon doves, no? Granted, it costs cards, but if you don't fight yet, you don't need your whole hand, do you?

I'd say it's safe to assume that you can summon at least two doves before you'd find yourself in a position where you'd use "Now you see it...", UNLESS you have a specific plan revolving around that exact spell. You should of course build your crew accordingly, but I'm just speaking of the majority of the lists here.

Also, to be honest, I don't see the Doves as being all that critical to how Colette works. Now I might of course be wrong in that assesment as I haven't played her yet.
I think you'd still be better off with a Gunsmith or Johan or something like that, than what the Doves bring you against a rushing enemy.


I think I lost track of what we're actually discussing here..


To summarize my opinions:
You can count on being able to summon a few doves during the first turns of the game which should save you a few SS compared to including them in your list from the beginning.

[Killionaire]

To be honest, I only summoned Doves partly through the game. They're pretty potent as missiles to deliver Magician's Duel, but their other great strength is increasing your gang's numbers. It's one of the easiest ways to summon more numbers in the whole game, and this lets you more finely control activations, if you need to delay.

[Lalochezia]

And that one (0) per turn suffices for at least 1~2 Doves during the first two turns of the game. Yes?

As I see things there's little reason to begin with 3 Doves at 2 SS each, which is really what I thought we discussed.

Even if you can get to the enemy on turn one with Colette I don't think it'll be wise of you to do so. Attrition doesn't seem to be her kind of game as she burns out fairly fast.

Maybe you don't want colette in combat in the first 2 turns of the game...but what about the doves? They have a 10" walk and flight. You can start three, fly them across basically the entire board and start exploding them on people, and then start summoning more with your zero actions.

Dove blitz.