Poor Ronin

[Alondir]

Anyone else feel for em, they used to be the best 5ss you could spend, now there main skill is 2 action points, isn't there use well blunted. They could be very fast, now there lagging behind with the rest of the slow stuff and your Vic's go unsupported :(,

Have anyone had a chance to play test these changes and how much did it hurt??

[Lucidicide]

I've had them played against me. They are still quite effective for 5ss.

[dgraz]

I've had them played against me. They are still quite effective for 5ss.
Ditto. At 5ss, they're a solid choice. I always thought they were too good for 5ss before, I think they're just right now.

[mylastnerv]

Agreed for sure. If anything, they were balanced out by the change.

[JMGraham]

Am I missing something? What changes are you speaking of?

Thanks,
Jim

[JMGraham]

Scratch that - found it in the no-yet-official errata:

PAGE 14
Ronin
Run Through
Change its AP cost from (1) to (2)

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

Scratch that - found it in the no-yet-official errata:
It's official. It's just not in fancy PDF form is all. ;)

[Hookers]

ronin are still definitely amazing

what the change did is stop the dashing in and out of combat with no risk to themselves sillyness. before you could dash in, get 3 strikes and dash out with no one to stop you and never putting yourself at risk. no at least you have to take some hits like everyone else if you want to get into combat. it was a much needed change. they're still hard to kill, annihilate spirits, ignore armor, and have a plus flip.

[Iron Man]

only problem is now my doppleganger cant steal run through! i used it to let him run away fast

[JMGraham]

It's official. It's just not in fancy PDF form is all. ;)

Gotcha - the official-but-not-yet-fancy errata. :)

Honestly the change seems a reasonable one. I'm working on a Viktoria crew, and got my first game in with her the other day. To say they were potent would be a gross understatement. I imagine with one run through and the pushes from the trigger that they'll still be plenty mobile.

Jim

[Guy in Suit]

I literally just played my first games last night. The first game I took three Ronin, the second game only one, as they just didn't do much.

Granted, I was playing against Pandora, so their low Wp made them a bit of a liability, so they may have been traded out for Taelor and extra stones regardless, but in the first game they just seemed SLOW.

I mean W4 is really pedestrian. Indeed, they never got into combat on their own terms. It was nice being able to get OUT of combat, sure, but I just feel like run-through lost its purpose, as for two action points I'd rather just charge and get teh damage bonus, as I can use the trigger to disengage anyway!

I'm a total newb, so haven't seen non-errata'd Ronin tear it up, but as they are now, the Run-through ability is very situational, and I found Taelor much more useful in game two than I found two extra Ronin in game one.

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

The difference between Run Through and a Charge is that Charge HAS to be in a straight line towards a TARGET.

With Run Through, the Ronin can scoot around a building, not in a straight line, and hit a target that's, let's say, behind a building and not in Line of Sight.

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

It's also worth mentioning that the Strike that goes along with Run Through can be made at ANY time during the Push. If there's movement left over after performing the Strike, the Ronin can continue its Push.

[Hatchethead]

I placed my order for a blister of Ronin after the change was announced. I still love 'em, they're some of the best sculpts in the Wyrd line and now they're markedly less ridiculous. So much so that I won't feel I have to apologize for fielding them. :D

[Lucidicide]

It's also worth mentioning that the Strike that goes along with Run Through can be made at ANY time during the Push. If there's movement left over after performing the Strike, the Ronin can continue its Push.

And this is why Run Through remains great, even for 2AP.

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

And this is why Run Through remains great, even for 2AP.
And if you pull the Next Target trigger off during that Strike... Wackiness ensues.

[JMGraham]

And this is why Run Through remains great, even for 2AP.

Also, Run through is a push and ignores disengaging strikes, while charging does not. Lots of good reasons to still use run through.

Jim

[tenabrae]

And it ignores charge defenses like Alyce's Bag of Tricks.

[dgraz]

And it ignores charge defenses like Alyce's Bag of Tricks.
And Perdita's Quick Draw - much to my dismay.

[Hatchethead]

And Perdita's Quick Draw - much to my dismay.
That alone is reason enough for me. Once my Crooked Men and Ronin arrive, my regular Ortega opponent will rue the day.

[mylastnerv]

That alone is reason enough for me. Once my Crooked Men and Ronin arrive, my regular Ortega opponent will rue the day.

I'm all about Ortega's "rueing the day"

[Amarel]

Meh, I'm probably a bad player, but the Ronin were the key component in keeping my Vik's at a competitive level (although they were too cheap out of faction).

Thankfully with the SPA's about to come out I can now put the Vik's to one side for good.

[EDIT] I should quantify this a bit more, probably. Although I don't use Run Through *that* often (sometimes preferring to Walk and retain Harmless, for example), it is the threat of it that can be used to help contain my opponents threats. It allows me to keep Seamus at bay a little (as he can't guarantee being able to destroy the tiny thing that just knocked off a couple of health, that he'll get back if she dies), it helps to make a Pandora player double check before taking a risk on an Incite/Pacify run, it helps control Lilith, and Zoraida's Voodoo doll shenanigans, it means that, with Hamelin, there's a response to a Lure (getting them back before they die).

In short, I'm sure there's plenty of people very happy with the change, but it doesn't half screw over Vik players (especially when the real solution is not to make Outcasts so cheaply available to other Factions, who can use them to plug gaps that are inherent to their Faction while they're the core of an Outcast force).

Anyway, enough griping, I have other Factions, so the Vik's can just stay in the case now.

[AvatarForm]

I think this makes Ronin balanced now... before, Vikkies crews had the obvious upper hand, now Vik players will be more of a challenge than an uphill battle for my Raspy!

[Lalochezia]

It was a good change.

I wish their walk was 1 higher now though.

[Sholto]

I'll still use them, but I am all sad that I cannot use one as a charge shield for my Ortegas any more, and then obey her out the way to shoot her attacker to meaty chunks.

A sensible change, though. Their potential movement was too much for 5ss.

[Killionaire]

Ronin really ought to move 5/7 if this is the change. Their speed leaves them far too immobile, compared to 'really damned mobile'. At 5 points, that's a solid unit. But their melee is weaker than the 4 point Witchling Stalker, with the exact same gun and threat range otherwise. Witchlings and their weapon with Crit Strike really do more otherwise. Having more damage more than offsets armor piercing usually.

[Drool_bucket]

I do agree that while the change hurts, its a good one. But I also agree that they need a bump in their Wk at least, if not overall.

Now they appear to be slowish models that can go really fast every once in a while....

[Trag Sifarin]

I believe that it was a quick fix for the problem. The problem I have now (besides buying 6 ronin) is that there base move has been lowered from 12in to 8in. That is significant over 2 turns. I guess I am just miffed that I spent money($18 for 3) to buy a nerfed product. I mean they just came out in February. I had plans to use them at GenCon but am now unsure. I just think that this errata was a little premature and not well thought out. Hope this doesn't $$$$$$$$ anybody off, but it has $$$$$$$$ed me off a bit.

[Buhallin]

I just think that this errata was a little premature and not well thought out.
So apart from not liking it, what makes you think it wasn't well thought out?

I've seen a lot of people complaining about how the Viks are now just unplayable, and how this is a horrible change. But WHY? Pretend for a moment you never knew about the (1) Run Through... Would the model not be worth it then? Personally, I think the mobility is still spectacular, the survivability is impressive, and the utility with a replacement Viktoria is pretty handy. They may not be completely awesome models for the cost any more, but that just reinforces the need for the change.

So, again - are Ronin not worth the 5 stones after the change? Or are the Viks just so weak they need a horribly broken model to make them viable?

[Trag Sifarin]

So, again - are Ronin not worth the 5 stones after the change? Or are the Viks just so weak they need a horribly broken model to make them viable?

As I had stated before it is the loss of two inches of movement per activation. Also I don't think that the Viks need the ronin to win. I am just more $$$$$$$$ed off that I spent quite a bit of cash on a product that doesn't preform like it does when I bought it(also took the time to paint it all also).

Also I would also like to point out that I am as big of a Wyrd fanboy as anyone (personally have got 4 guys hooked and 2 are just about ready to bite), but I will also let them know when they do something that I don't like. This doesn't mean I am "never gona buy Wyrd again" or any thing stupid like that. Just that I not one to keep silent when my money and time is involved.

[Hatchethead]

Ronin were off the hook prior to the change (for 5ss). Tabletop miniature games are a unique beast, as I'm sure you're well aware. Suffering as your favorite model is is pummeled with the nerf bat comes with the territory, especially when it's something as obviously OP as the post-errata Ronin. The fact that Wyrd pumps out errata mere months after the original release is actually a good thing. These monkeys are on the ball. Yeah, it sucks. I can sympathize. But you had to assume it was coming, on some level. (1) Run Through was OTT.

At least we're talkin' Wyrd and not GW. Try sinking $500-$1000+ into an army only to have it completely revamped, nerfed and facepalm'd into something you no longer recognize as the army you once loved. Now that's a kick in the junk.

[Trag Sifarin]

Try sinking $500-$1000+ into an army only to have it completely revamped, nerfed and facepalm'd into something you no longer recognize as the army you once loved. Now that's a kick in the junk.

I have been playing miniature games since 94 so I have had similar things happen. I just wish they would have sped up the walk while nerfing the rest. They were great throw away troops that hit the line of the opponent early. Now instead of being 24in across the board on turn 2 they are 16in without any attacks. I would have been happy with them changing run throuh to say something like:

(1)Run Through: Push this model up to it's Cg. This model may interrupt the push to make a (1): Daisho Strike attack. Continue the push after resolving the strike.

I believe that this accomplishes the point of getting a free attack while not slowing down the model. It is also alot less of a hit to the ronin. Crap I would have been happy with:

(1)Run Through: Push this model up to it's Cg.

[Q'iq'el]

Trag Sifarin, I believe Buvallin has suggested you compare them to other similar choices, rather than what they used to be - this is the clue needed to asses them being balanced or not.

I can think of Young Nephilim, Silurid, Punk Zombies and Witchlings as a comparable price single-models (4~6 SS cost). Most of those are perfectly in balance with the new Ronin and were considerably worse than the old Ronin, for comparable price. Witchling, arguably, may be too good for 4 SS they cost.

Nominally Ronin are not all that fast at 4", but they are Mobile (in practice maybe no better than Scout and worse than Flight but these abilities are rare among cheap models). In the quoted group of models the 5" movement speed prevails, but there are no special rules to improve it, except for very situational water affinity on the Silurid part and Nephilims' flight, for which you pay extra.

Ronin also have longer than average (within their price range) weapon range, which means their charge and run through attacks offer up to 8" effective range... then you have a guaranteed trigger adding 4" to this, which is truly unique (and melee expert which allows for an extra strike). On the top of that they are armed with a ranged weapon, which is generally the domain of more expensive models and/or ranged attack based crews.


This may seem bad to you, if you compare to previous speed, but it is considerably better mobility than any other model in the same price has with arguable exception of Young Nephilim - flight allows them for a bit greater flexibility, but they are somewhat worse fighters and cost 1SS more.


Just take a look how Pandora - another exceptionally mobile model - has been brought in line recently. It may well be a part of a broader plan to balance fast crews against teams which cannot move with unnatural speed.

[baylock]

never played with or agianst them but before the change they looked mean on paper imo any way this has roped them in

[Hatchethead]

Ronin were too fast prior to errata. Sure, there are numerous ways to rejigger Run Through and still grant the Ronin their 24" in two turns, but that would have been ignoring the core issue ... that Ronin could jam 24" across the board in two turns (and still be crazy awesome unlike the majority of models in their price/movement bracket).

I do feel your pain, both as a long time miniature gamer and as a guy who likes crazy fast, awesome minis ... but I tend to operate under the assumption that if something is a no-brainer auto-include, chances are it needs to be looked at. For instance, I'll be genuinely surprised if my Zombie Chihuahua is still fully intact at 1ss in the wake of errata 2.0. That thing is a bucket full of nuts.

[Buhallin]

I do understand what the change did to them, and I do understand that you don't like the change. I'm just saying that I think some of your statements are unfounded.

There really isn't anything to indicate that this was a rushed decision on Wyrd's part. Just because you don't like the change doesn't mean they didn't look at the numbers and playtest it.

I'm also not sure why you're upset over the models you bought. They're still perfectly usable and competitive models. Would you run 6 still? Not sure, but honestly if you thought Ronin were good enough to make an entire 30-35SS list out of them, you really should have seen this coming. So you might not use all 6... Would you still use 4? <shrug> I wouldn't, but I wouldn't have run 6 in the first place ;) I don't see that this change makes them any less viable to run that heavy. So long as you're running 4, the purchase was worth it.

Maybe I'm just not terribly sympathetic because I play Rasputina - I never get 24" across the board in a game at all, much less by Turn 2. Excessive speed is a very bad thing for any game, because it compresses everything and the only way to deal with it is typically more speed. Watching Warmachine accelerate to the point where I was frequently losing models before I had a chance to activate even a single one is what killed that game for me.

I'm happy to see Wyrd reining in the overpower here. Unfortunately, you can't do that without hurting people who overbought the overpower, but that's just the price of keeping the game healthy.

[Hatchethead]

Just to be clear: I'm not bashing on you, Trag. You dislike the change and I can respect that, there's little more I can say without looking like a knee-jerk fanboi. Thus concludes my participation in this particular thread. Good luck with your Ronin, sir!

:peace:

[Trag Sifarin]

Maybe I'm just not terribly sympathetic because I play Rasputina - I never get 24" across the board in a game at all, much less by Turn 2. Excessive speed is a very bad thing for any game, because it compresses everything and the only way to deal with it is typically more speed. Watching Warmachine accelerate to the point where I was frequently losing models before I had a chance to activate even a single one is what killed that game for me.

I'm happy to see Wyrd reining in the overpower here. Unfortunately, you can't do that without hurting people who overbought the overpower, but that's just the price of keeping the game healthy.

Oh believe me know. I own every single Arcanist model, they are my first faction. Raspy is who I am currently working on now. Her speed isn't as much of an issue because of her long range power though.

Also I don't want to whack the hornets nest, or seem like the ungrateful jackass. Just my thoughts.

[Raintar]

Oh hey, remember me? I posted a 6 page thread on why Ronin are broken a couple months ago and everybody said I was crazy? Oh look what happened, and now everyone completely agrees they were too much. Yep.....

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

Oh hey, remember me? I posted a 6 page thread on why Ronin are broken a couple months ago and everybody said I was crazy? Oh look what happened, and now everyone completely agrees they were too much. Yep.....
It's a good thing that we try to fix the broken stuff then, isn't it?

;)

[Raintar]

Yes, I'm very surprised how quickly things get fixed which is fantastic for the game. I just have to lobby for a couple more balance changes that need to happen :D.

Malifaux is looking pretty balanced for the most part although I hope soon that certain units that are underused get some love.

[Guy in Suit]

Bah, Ronen suck now, I want my money back :P

:violin:

[Raintar]

Nah they don't suck now, they're just more balanced :D.

They still have +1 Damage Flip and melee expert, so they're not unplayable.

[AkumaKaze]

I run ronin with my viks and i am glas they changed the run through rules. They were WAAAY too good for a mere 5 points with basically a free charge in and out of combat. It is a good, balanced change

[TimeLapse]

It's official. It's just not in fancy PDF form is all. ;)


I do wish that the FaQ and the two differnt erratas and the rule book wern't all needed to play a simple game, I mean having to check the rule book and then the errata is one thing but to have to referance 4 differnt documents, Also I wouldn't have know about the 2nd errata page thingy if i didn't happen on it while aimlessly surfing the site.

I dont mind the changes I just wish they were all in one easy to use refeance so that all i need is that and the rule book to play.

Sorry small little rant! but done.
____ back on subject, _______
As for Ronin, I never played them before but i am planning on once i get the money to buy them for my vik crew. As for the "Nerf" I dont think its that bad, it does suck that there are no real fast unit like all the other factions have to help them win Reconnoiter, Breakthough and the like. I mean almost everyone one else has some kind of advance deploy or leapers that make it so that they can travel the table easly, but I am hoping that there will be some fast Merc stuff in the next book to help even that out.

I agree with Raintar about the Ronin 5 pointers that has melee expert, daisho ingores armor/ adds +1 to DG flips, is great. CB 5 is okay I can live with that. They still are speedy little suckers once there in charge range because of Run through and there trigger.Thats a total of 10 inches, If you Run through at 3inches then hit with the sward then get pushed 4" then finish run though for the last 3" in melee range of another target and hit then you can push for another 4 inches.

Then you add hard to kill mix with Seppuku I mean, oh only one health left well I guess i swap her for some soul stones.

I could go on but its a great model still at 5 points even better, not as good as it was before but hey still a vary stong and good model.

-Andrew

[Ropetus]

Well, I don't think it would be too much of a hassle to compile all the erratas into one document by yourself an print it. Then you would have everything in the right place. Also, you could use small notes and add all the erratas to your book in an easily removable way.


I mean almost everyone one else has some kind of advance deploy or leapers that make it so that they can travel the table easly, but I am hoping that there will be some fast Merc stuff in the next book to help even that out.

Viktorias and Sisters in Spirit? Ronin are still very fast while near enemies. You can use Hamelin to get some extra speed from your minions as well.

-Ropetus

[TimeLapse]

Viktorias and Sisters in Spirit? Ronin are still very fast while near enemies. You can use Hamelin to get some extra speed from your minions as well.

-Ropetus

First off I am not going to send my masters out by themselves to get themselves killed trying to make it to the far end of the table.
As for Hamelin could you pick a worse way to get a speed character in your list? First Hamelin is 9SS, seconded he has to still buy a good hight one with leap, that will cost him another 3+1 SS points for a total of around 13 SS points. Next that hight one can’t be outside of 10 inches of hamelin or it dies. No not really the speediest guy.

I’m not saying that they should give a good walk/charger boost to Ronin, I just stating the fact that the Viks don’t have a small speed unit. I just hoping that they will in the up coming books, because they need it to be completive in tournaments.

___ back off topic____

AS for the Erratas and the FaQ I was just ranting because its all over the place, the FaQ should not be a place to read on what are rules, but to clear up rule questions, but in the way its written they expand on the rules making it just as necessary to have that with you as the erratas and main rules.

Also having the 2 erratas in different locations and one being on a forum makes it hard for new players to find and most likey they will get to know them when they are shown them during a game in a tournament and that is not the place to find out about rule changes. All that will do is encourage new players to either quit or get burned out in the tournament and then there not having fun witch I think we can all agree is the point of a game, is to have fun.

I think its resonable to assume that most players will go online to find the errata, I think that its unresonable to assume that they will even think about looking for a 2nd one.In fact most posts that complane about the new rule changes will have one or two players responding asking where there getting the new rules, and about 10 players who dont bother to respond because they assume it was in the normal errata that they have not printed out yet.

As a quick fix add a link to the 2nd set of erratas in the errata area or make the 2nd set unofficial till they have the time to update the official one.

I like that they are errata-ing things and making the game balance but its a bit confusing and I for one would like an updated main rule book to come out (don’t really want to have to buy another but for the cause) or to have it all in one place so that I can download it and print it.

Anyways its more then just having to reference 3 or more sources to make sure that you read one rule right.

Okay im going to end it here since this is becomeing a long post that is a bit off topic.

-Andrew

[Ropetus]

Well, Guild are in the same boat, their only speed model being a MAster (Perdita). Most of the rest are Wk/Cg 4/6. You don't have to send your Masters alone but you have the option if you need the speed.


As for Hamelin could you pick a worse way to get a speed character in your list? First Hamelin is 9SS, seconded he has to still buy a good hight one with leap, that will cost him another 3+1 SS points for a total of around 13 SS points. Next that hight one can’t be outside of 10 inches of hamelin or it dies. No not really the speediest guy.
Umm, I didn't mean that.

I meant Obeying your own guys for some extra speed. Granting a Charge (place your own model in LoS but far enough) gives 6/7/8 extra movement which is a considerable increase. In the early turns you could get a second cast by using Irresistable Dance with the trigger first (you're going to only walk anyway so no harm done).

And it's not like Hamelin is useless against the opposition either. However, he needs a bigger crew to really shine so is not a solution for low SS games.

-Ropetus

[tenabrae]

Well, Guild are in the same boat, their only speed model being a MAster (Perdita). Most of the rest are Wk/Cg 4/6. You don't have to send your Masters alone but you have the option if you need the speed.
Mate this isn't your week, you're usually so good at this :) Peacekeeper is super speedy too. As is the perdita/neph/obey chain of whatever you want mobile.

[Wahahajin]

I got a quick question if anyone could help me out. I played the Ronin when they were crazy powerful with the 1 AP run through and have been trying to play them with the 2AP run through and they just aren't very effective. They are too slow I end up just keeping around to sacrifice for the Viks. The increase in speed to wk/cg 5/7 would be nice but if they were to stay the same speed. wouldn't the "run through" only being allowed once per activation nerf enough yet keep the Ronin still faily fast and effective? This would also allow them to run through and still reactivate Harmless as well.

[TimeLapse]

it does make them less powerful, but being a costing 5ss model with +1 to damage flips ignores armor, hard to kill and harmless, is worth the points alone but then add in next target and you got yourself a fine low cost model.

Run through now costing (2) makes its use diffent, Use it to get out of combat and still get to use an attack. But if you are not in combat and a push move would take you as far as a charge then I would charge giving you a +2 to your damage filp.

And on top of all that its a low cost that has Melee Expert! I mean come on could you ask for more? well yes but to keep it fair its a steal at 5 points.

oh and it has mobile! and Defensive! Yeah its still a vary efective model. Use it like you would use any 4 pointer in a guild list, as a basic attacker, use next target to make your oppent move to strike you back.

And when they are about to die Seppuku!

-Andrew

[Wahahajin]

I would rather they got rid of the extra damage flip/ harmless and kept its mobility up. Especially with the Viktoria's I think the abilty to keep up with them would be more useful. IF they can get in to combat they are okay not great and for 5 ss I think the Guild Austringer out classes the Ronin hands down.