Pandora Turn 1 Kill

[Captain.Danger]

So supposedly my friends played a game today, one was Rasputina and the other was Pandora.

By the end of turn one Raspy was dead, killed by Pandora and 7 linked sorrows.

This seem practical/effective to you guys? other than the fact that it worked hahaha.

What I'm trying to ask is this a reliable list/strategy?


thanks!

-Captain Danger

[nilus]

What strategy were they playing, what were the schemes?

Also can you describe exactly how this all happened in turn 1. Would be tough to pull off that early.

Also as far as it goes this means Pandora and a bunch of sorrows should be sitting next to the rest of Rasputina's crew. So they might get slaughtered by the remaining models.

Effective, yes. The best strategy ever...Nope. Can easily be countered. Number one thing to remember when fighting Pandora is leave her to the end. She is much less of a threat when all her sorrows are dead. And they are easy to kill.

[Ropetus]

How can she practically Link with 7 Sorrows? They are not Spirits so cannot be moved through and will block her LoS to anything so that will only make her get stuck. Three is the max number of linked Sorrows if you still want to do something.

-Ropetus

[Captain.Danger]

I wasn't saying that this was the best strategy ever ;)
The strategy was to kill the master, assassinate i think its called?

It was a chain of links, one sorrow to pandora and the rest linkning to the other sorrows. pandora then incites/pacifies all of her sorrows, moving a total of 28". in the description of link it just says that you place the sorrow into base contact(so you can move them further)

she then incited raspy and soulstoned the total to be in his favor and did 8 wounds with one incite.

[Zethal]

I assume that Pandora just incited/pacified herself and sorrows within 3" of Tina and then made her fail a couple Wp tests. Cheat and soulstone a Project emotions then cast a self-loathing or incite/pacify her.

If Tina fails I suppose Pandora can then also likely kill a couple more models as long as she can continue to win those Wp Duels.

This seems to be largely luck dependent though, certainly not a reliable way to win. And Pandy can't ever win Reconnoiter.

For example if it fails to kill Tina or even if it succeeds and there is an Ice Golem sitting around there is a nice cluster of 21 stones and a master that can easily be taken out. Or against Ramos if he lives he can just blow up one Gamin and wipe all the sorrows and nearly kill Pandora.

Most armies should have some AoE so that they can deal with a situation like this, it is a very risky gambit to try against an experienced player.

[Captain.Danger]

wait, why do the sorrows have to be in a circle around pandora?

could this formation work? Plz correct me if im wrong

(just keep adding sorrows)
.......o-----etc.
......o------sorrow linked to sorrow
.....o-----sorrow linked to pandora
....O------pandora

[chaosobscuros]

wait, why do the sorrows have to be in a circle around pandora?

could this formation work? Plz correct me if im wrong

(just keep adding sorrows)
.......o-----etc.
......o------sorrow linked to sorrow
.....o-----sorrow linked to pandora
....O------pandora

They wouldn't have to be in a circle, but you would need the target to be within 3" of all of the Sorrows to get off the Wounds from Emotional Stress. Keeping them in a circular pattern would also help to keep an exploding model from getting into range of all of them.

All the same, tactics like this can be fun to pull off once, but more than that, you are really just taking the excitement out of the game. Lining up your models, and doing the exact same moves in order to pull off your unbeatable combo game after game would get very old very quickly. If the game is not fun for both you and your opponent, why bother playing it?

[Rathnard]

It seems to me like an all-or-nothing gamble. It could work, but one bad flip could leave Pandy facing an entire crew all on her own.

Personally, I think a slightly better approach might be to push into range, cast a spell (anything) on the Master and cheat/use a soulstone to trigger mental anguish. On the next turn, use a doppleganger/soulstone to ensure you get first activation and incite the master so he runs off the board first.

It's situational but it's more acheivable, less risky and far less reliant on a specialist crew than a 7-sorrow congaline would be.

[Captain.Danger]

i like that idea better Rath.

Thx for the comments guys, again this list was played by a friend and not me hahaha.

I asked him about it and he said it was too cheesy of a list and he's not gonna take it again. He just wanted to try something crazy and it worked haha.

again, thanks to all

-Captain Danger

[Zethal]

I don't think it cheesy at all and in some cicumstances can be devastating but it also has significant weaknesses and it's up to the ingenuity of players to exploit those aspects of an oppoents crew.

But I define fun as bringing my best, playing my best and playing against the best. Which seems to diverge from Chaos's definition of fun.

[Captain.Danger]

right. My opinion, I think its too cheesy. I'm never very competitive with my wargaming. I bring stuff that has a chance at winning but is more fun for me to play. This list seemed like a "eh, why not ;P" list, he said it was more of a one time list and he didn't have much fun with it seeing as they most likely spent more time setting up hahaha

[chaosobscuros]

I don't think it cheesy at all and in some cicumstances can be devastating but it also has significant weaknesses and it's up to the ingenuity of players to exploit those aspects of an oppoents crew.

But I define fun as bringing my best, playing my best and playing against the best. Which seems to diverge from Chaos's definition of fun.

My above statement wasn't meant to be insulting any style of game play. Over the years, I have played with and against some pretty cheesy lists from both several different miniature games. Simply put, I have personally found that strategies such as this one to be based more on list composition than actual game play. If you feel differently on this, that is perfectly fine.

I do, however define fun as playing a mutually enjoyable game, against another player, regardless of skill levels. The game and the social interaction is far more important to me than winning. If you feel differently, then you are right, we do have different outlooks.

[TheViking]

It happened to me today. I was the Rasputina player. I didnt see it coming at all because Pandora goes last, Pacifies all the sorrows and moves the 28" across the table. Its not bad at all for a strategy because there are only two things with higher WP than Pandora and when she gets to you she has all of her soulstones and has only used her 0 actions to get to you so has all of her spells left. And when you fail you take 8 different sets of wounds basically negating armor or any of that.

Plus if you think you cant kill the master you kill the rest of the crew. Unless your guild with a Judge your not over WP 6. Its pretty crazy, and then the dopplerganger allows you to basically go first if you fail, then you get 3 more shots at it. Its not as impracticle as it sounds. Not only that, when you try to target Pandora its another WP duel, so if you fail that take another 8 wounds. Just takes alot of good planning to set up

[Lalochezia]

This all only works because linked models now move when a model is pushed. Before the errata they did not work that way. Pushes were clarified as "moves" so that they followed all the same rules for terrain, etc. My guess is that allowing linked models to move into base to base with models that were pushed was an unintended side effect and will be corrected with further errata.

[Lalochezia]

Double post.

[Amarel]

Just takes alot of good planning to set up
The only thing I disagree with in your post is this bit. I don't think it does take much setting up at all - just move and link sorrows to burn through your opponents activations and then you've got a 28" move (with an 8"-12" range on top of that, so expect some of that move to be used to return Pandy to safety).

That said it does become natural to start bunching most of your models when you play against her, with a couple of outliers to tempt her / make her wary of certain routes in / out. After that you start taking out her Sorrows and hoping to cap her range, in an ideal world you've got blast damage to fix her with (although this is a little faction dependent and if you're playing blind you can't put too many points into that for fear of screwing yourself against someone else :)).

Anyway, she's definitely someone that requires practice to take out; which is no bad thing.

[Csonti]

My guess is that allowing linked models to move into base to base with models that were pushed was an unintended side effect and will be corrected with further errata.
I can just second that. Despite being a Pandora player (or because of that).

[Omadon]

It seems to me like an all-or-nothing gamble. It could work, but one bad flip could leave Pandy facing an entire crew all on her own.

Personally, I think a slightly better approach might be to push into range, cast a spell (anything) on the Master and cheat/use a soulstone to trigger mental anguish. On the next turn, use a doppleganger/soulstone to ensure you get first activation and incite the master so he runs off the board first.

It's situational but it's more acheivable, less risky and far less reliant on a specialist crew than a 7-sorrow congaline would be.

Um. Oh god. I was just about to say "Wouldn't they run as soon as they were hit by it?" However - I just read the errata. Jesus christ. This is amazing xD

As far as the panda one turn kill thing goes - bare in mind, all of the sorrows are insignificant. It is a total one trick pony, and if you scatter enough that she can't get a bead on too many things, then you can probably trash her on VP. Also - bare in mind that none of the sorrows have Martyr, so the ones linked to sorrows will deal damage to them. Annd, if you kill the sorrows that form links to other sorrows, then she's going to have to mess around alot rebuilding the chains. If you're playing guild - take Raid, and do whatever else you can to milk VP from the fact that as far as the final count is concerned, she only has one model.

[heckler]

i was the pandora player in the game. i tried it to see if it would work. i had 7 sorrows, pandora and a doppleganger. in hindsight i didn't need the doppleganger like i thought i would since he got left in the dust and didn't do anything.

the trick takes absolutely no planning and very little risks. the actual problem is that a linked to model can be linked to. if they changed it so that you couldnt do the link chain then it would bring it under control.

honestly the linked model bound to pandora is meant to move when she is pushed the 4", otherwise she would have no reason to get linked to, defeating the purpose of her box set. it's the link chain that makes it ridiculous.

in hindsight, i could have moved past each ice gamin, caused a pacify check, killed it, and moved the 4" back on course. with wp4 it's a good bet.

by the time you get to the master you have 3 casts left and a pacify you can still use. i didn't pacify any of his models in the game to this point, so it would make rasputina activate last had i not succeeded.

one question i do have is what is the duration of pacify/incite. neither the book nor the errata give a duration. is it for the rest of the game? does it last until the model activates again?

again, the moral of the story is that the link rules need to be changed. easy to do, low risk first turn kills don't make this a game. if i wanted a faster game like that i'd play poker.

[TheBugKing]

*edit*
In discussion

[Keltheos]

This is being discussed.

[heckler]

i did not use them to block los to her. i used them to do an arc around rasputina.

[Amarel]

in hindsight, i could have moved past each ice gamin, caused a pacify check, killed it, and moved the 4" back on course. with wp4 it's a good bet.
This is the side issue with her - her WP is so high that she will nearly always have the advantage offensively (fine) but also defensively (not quite so fine, imo, as it makes her amazingly strong both on the attack and also when being attacked). But I digress, sorry :).

[Keltheos]

Her Df is definitely not high, so shooting/melee work very nicely against her (yes, she can redirect damage to Woes, but that's something else)

[Captain.Danger]

@heckler

just think of incite/pacify as eHaley's feat ;) its just for that turn.

[Amarel]

Her Df is definitely not high, so shooting/melee work very nicely against her (yes, she can redirect damage to Woes, but that's something else)
But to even target her you have to do a WP->WP duel, and with a WP of 7 she's already got a big advantage (a few models have the same, but only one has higher (from memory)). The couple of times I have managed to win that duel I've then been sucker-punched by her using one of her many Soul Stones. She could have a Def of 20 and I wouldn't have noticed ;).

[heckler]

her wp is 7 which is higher than average but not absurd. it should be higher than average since that's what she does. it's the fact that she can chain around a bunch of things that makes it ridiculous.

there's 2 models with higher wp, zoreida and leviticus.

but if you pass it, then with def 2 she's low. sure, with a soulstone it can get higher but many masters have a cb of 7 with soulstones of their own. and with 8 wounds she can be a bit fragile.

[Amarel]

her wp is 7 which is higher than average but not absurd. it should be higher than average since that's what she does.
Not arguing that, just saying that it makes her very difficult to hit; giving her a huge defensive bonus and making her low Def an additional speed bump rather than a mitigating factor for her other abilities.


sure, with a soulstone it can get higher but many masters have a cb of 7 with soulstones of their own. and with 8 wounds she can be a bit fragile.
CB doesn't matter, it's not getting past her defense that's tricky, it's the WP test that makes her so hard to hit.

That high WP also gives her the offensive advantage over every other model in the game bar three (Levi, Zoraida and Hollow Waifs) - i.e. when she casts one her spells, she has the advantage in any duel against everyone else. The fact that she has the joint second highest Soul Stones cache of any Master, so she's generally got spare to burn on the off chance that she's not won the duel, is just the icing on the cake.

Anyway, kinda off topic now so... :).

[Murphy'sLawyer]

New to the forum and game but I just had to say why not just limit the number of sorrows that can link to a model. I mean any more than three sorrows linked to any model seems ruthless weather it is a friend or foe model.

But then again I am just getting into the game.

[heckler]

only one model can link to another.

but the sorrow linked to panda has a sorrow linked to it and so on. i know the rule needs to be changed, that's why i posted. i'm just not official, so i'm letting the powers that be know about it.

[RitualNet]

The problem is if they nerf her too much, they remove one of the crews as being viable to play. Maybe limit the amount of sorrows that can link to her, or, they take damage when they use their abilities... that way the sorrows can help her do an alpha-strike, but then become progressively weaker, until even a simple blast will finish them off.

[Joona]

CB doesn't matter, it's not getting past her defense that's tricky, it's the WP test that makes her so hard to hit.

That high WP also gives her the offensive advantage over every other model in the game bar three (Levi, Zoraida and Hollow Waifs) - i.e. when she casts one her spells, she has the advantage in any duel against everyone else. The fact that she has the joint second highest Soul Stones cache of any Master, so she's generally got spare to burn on the off chance that she's not won the duel, is just the icing on the cake.

Anyway, kinda off topic now so... :).
Cb7 vs. Df8 is all fine and dandy but Wp6 vs. Wp7 is not? Most Masters and a rather large number of minions have a Wp6 that shouldn't make it too hard to get her. And she, like everyone else, will run out of cards and soulstones eventually. The biggest problem with the current errata is that she can drag around a whole army of Sorrows with her and move way too much. Because of this it's enough to get one or two attacks in to kill the enemy master. This probably wasn't the intent.

Also, when casting spells she loses her advantage. Her Ca6 doesn't give her much of an edge against the Wp6 of most masters. And she's not winning Wp duels when casting spells, thus not allowing her to move around. Of course the enemy model is still losing a Wp duel and take wounds.

Possible fixes are probably that pushes don't work with Link again like before the errata. Or the ability to use multiple Incite/Pacify per turn is taken away from her (maybe only once each). Or she'll only be able to use them on enemy models. Or maybe losing Wp duels will start affecting her own models too. Maybe even a combination of these. The push thingy might need a fix anyway as it also makes it possible for Leveticus to throw the Desolation Engine quite far on any turn if need be though it's far easier to anticipate/ruin the Engine bomb than Pandora bomb as it takes several activations to get close.

Murphy's Lawyer, limiting the number of Sorrows that can link to a model doesn't help here. Each model has only one other model Linked to it.

edit. Of course with this tactic Pandora is at risk too, albeit small. Because Incite/Pacify aren't spells, you can't decide to lose the duel so you'll have to cheat the sorrows flip down at times or Pandoras flip up, which ever is easier. Pull a Black Joker at a critical time and you're out of luck. Rasputina will really like Pandora being surrounded by hordes of relatively low Df models to trigger blasts off of to hit Pandy.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Murphy's Lawyer, limiting the number of Sorrows that can link to a model doesn't help here. Each model has only one other model Linked to it.I see, well then make it so that sorrows can't link with friendly insignificant models, or something like that.

[Captain.Danger]

that might help, or just say that they cannot link to friendly sorrows

[Murphy'sLawyer]

that might help, or just say that they cannot link to friendly sorrowsExactly, no nurfing needed really.

[Lalochezia]

that might help, or just say that they cannot link to friendly sorrows

Link is an ability shared by multiple models. If it is changed, it will likely be a change that is applied across the board. So, "this model may not link to friendly sorrows" is not a likely fix.

However, Pandora worked just fine before the errata. My guess is she'll go back to working exactly how she originally did. All they need is a clause in link saying that pushes will not cause the linked model to move into base to base.

[Amarel]

Cb7 vs. Df8 is all fine and dandy but Wp6 vs. Wp7 is not?
Woah there, I'm not saying that something is fine and something else is not, I'm merely commenting that - as someone who plays against her - I find 'Expose Fears' to be far more frustrating to face, than her ability to bomb around the board.

To respond to your actual question, there are only 3 models in the game with DF8 (Zoraida, Perdita & the Voodoo Doll) so I'm not sure it's the best example, but yes I think a WP duel before you get a chance to target her, that will cause you at least one wound if you're within 12" of her and will allow her to quite likely push out of range of you if you don't make it, which you start at a disadvantage with and then have to have a standard CB vs DF duel afterwards if you do pass it, is more powerful than just facing DF8. I believe maths is on my side here, too, for whatever value his vote is worth ;).


Most Masters and a rather large number of minions have a Wp6 that shouldn't make it too hard to get her.
WP6 doesn't matter, you need WP7 to have the advantage against her when attacking and that's much less common.


Also, when casting spells she loses her advantage. Her Ca6 doesn't give her much of an edge against the Wp6 of most masters.
It gives her a massive edge, it means that she has the advantage. On an equal draw she wins, if the draw is cheated then she has the advantage of going second and if she has a red joker she can't be beaten (which obviously cascades down because if she has a thirteen, then only a red joker can beat it, and so on). The chance of my opponent having a face card in his hand is relatively low, the chance of me having his face card +1 is even lower.


Possible fixes are probably that pushes don't work with Link again like before the errata. Or the ability to use multiple Incite/Pacify per turn is taken away from her (maybe only once each). Or she'll only be able to use them on enemy models. Or maybe losing Wp duels will start affecting her own models too. Maybe even a combination of these. The push thingy might need a fix anyway as it also makes it possible for Leveticus to throw the Desolation Engine quite far on any turn if need be though it's far easier to anticipate/ruin the Engine bomb than Pandora bomb as it takes several activations to get close.
She's very difficult to balance, as we've seen from her going from a model no-one seemed to get at the beginning to the powerhouse she is now. I actually quite like the fact that she can bomb around the board and, potentially, get stuck somewhere unfavourable if my opponent overreaches - I think that feels like 'Pandora', and if you take it away I think she'll be a lot less fun to play. Sure the chain-link is a problem, but I don't feel that the linked-push is (just personal opinion, of course). I'd mostly like just a good chance to hit her when I do eventually catch her :fight:

[Joona]

I'm merely commenting that - as someone who plays against her - I find 'Expose Fears' to be far more frustrating to face, than her ability to bomb around the board.

...

I'd mostly like just a good chance to hit her when I do eventually catch her :fight:
Somehow I'm getting the feeling that you've been forced to play against her more than you'd like to :) It's just that her edge on other models isn't any bigger than in any other duel where your Cb/Ca/Wp is one lower than the Df/Wp of your enemy. I think Mr. Math is on my side here, I think.

Of course she has the ability to push away from you if she wins and you take a wound. Still, it's pretty much the same to use Wp6 to hit Pandora as it is to use Cb7 to hit Lilith/Perdita. You miss Pandora, you take a wound and probably won't get to hit her again, unless your doing it with a ranged weapon. Miss Perdita and she might shoot back for a rather massice damage (up to 7), miss Lilith and you're at an even bigger disadvantage to try to hit her again. Still, a Hanged could give Pandora a :-fate on her Wp duels for the rest of the game which ruins her. Marcus can give her a Wp4 every turn she's within 8" of him, which also ruins her. Use Crooked men and she can't get close to your Master. You can also get her with blasts and pulses that cause damage without any problems of her running away.

It's just that not every list will have an easy time dealing with her. That's pretty much the same with every Master and I like it that way. In my opinion the biggest problem at the moment isn't that she's hard to hit. It's that right now, she can drag a whole crew of Sorrows with her and one shot almost every model in the game by winning a Wp duel.

[Amarel]

It's just that her edge on other models isn't any bigger than in any other duel where your Cb/Ca/Wp is one lower than the Df/Wp of your enemy. I think Mr. Math is on my side here, I think.
This is true, but as you say it's the push away and wound if you fail or the need to then to do a second duel (relatively easy CB vs DF) that make it so painful feeling. Lilith's -CB trick is also very nasty :).


It's just that not every list will have an easy time dealing with her. That's pretty much the same with every Master and I like it that way.
It's probably worth everyone showing their Masters in their sig so as people can see where their point of view comes from. Playing the Vik's (who are flimsy and easy to hit) I do look on those who are harder to hit / kill with some jealousy, although I do try to be non-partisan when commenting on the boards.

[Sliver Chocobo]

I wasn't saying that this was the best strategy ever ;)
The strategy was to kill the master, assassinate i think its called?

It was a chain of links, one sorrow to pandora and the rest linkning to the other sorrows. pandora then incites/pacifies all of her sorrows, moving a total of 28". in the description of link it just says that you place the sorrow into base contact(so you can move them further)

she then incited raspy and soulstoned the total to be in his favor and did 8 wounds with one incite.


I don't think this is right
(although i could be wrong)

But i thought you couldn't link somthing that is linked to somthing else, so all the sorrow will have to in a circle around Pandora, which still doesn't work beacuse Pandora can't walk through her sorrrows and when her abilty push her 4 inches after winning a wp duel, she isn't walking so won't the break link (not saying panda doen't work, just that i don't this idea works)

[Omadon]

Simple answer. Add this line of text to link:

"Cannot be used on other models that also possess the (0)Link ability"

The change covers all of the game-breakingly weird stuff you can do with an army full of sorrows, but is inconsequential to everything else. Thoughts?

[Amarel]

Simple answer. Add this line of text to link:

"Cannot be used on other models that also possess the (0)Link ability"

The change covers all of the game-breakingly weird stuff you can do with an army full of sorrows, but is inconsequential to everything else. Thoughts?
Would that not hobble (heh) the SPA's, that rely on linking to each other to get a decent move?

It could be a rule just for the Sorrows.

"Incorporeal: A Sorrow can use the (0)Link ability on another Sorrow."

[Ropetus]

Would that not hobble (heh) the SPA's, that rely on linking to each other to get a decent move?

Abominations don't have Link. They only have a rule which allows them to tag along other Constructs.

Disallowing Linking to models with Link should stop the most ridiculous tricks. Pandora could still run around with 3 Sorrows with her which should be manageable.

-Ropetus

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Abominations don't have Link. They only have a rule which allows them to tag along other Constructs.

Disallowing Linking to models with Link should stop the most ridiculous tricks. Pandora could still run around with 3 Sorrows with her which should be manageable.

-RopetusMy thought exactly. Wait...are you in my head.

Has anyone heard if they have come up with any ideas on how to solve this at Wyrd?

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

It's being discussed.

[ork56]

Use Crooked men and she can't get close to your Master. You can also get her with blasts and pulses that cause damage without any problems of her running away.


How do crooked men help out? She can push past them on the way in and back out , so not ending her activation within 2"

Many blasts and pulses have a Wp resist, and as we already know, she has one of the top Wp in the game


one point on this not stated yet is that a lot of Ortegas have stubborn, giving +2 Wp on defence - this crew seems to have the best tools for taking her down?

[ork56]

Also, when casting spells she loses her advantage. Her Ca6 doesn't give her much of an edge against the Wp6 of most masters. And she's not winning Wp duels when casting spells, thus not allowing her to move around.


If her spells have a Wp resist, then she has won a Wp duel and can therefore inflict wounds and move?

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

If her spells have a Wp resist, then she has won a Wp duel and can therefore inflict wounds and move?
That's incorrect.

She succeeded in a Simple Ca Duel, not a Wp Duel.

[ork56]

Thanks WS, that will help next time I take on Pandy and friends

[Amarel]

Abominations don't have Link. They only have a rule which allows them to tag along other Constructs.
That'll teach me to reply when I don't have the book in front of me.
:spank:

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

Thanks WS, that will help next time I take on Pandy and friends
Keep in mind that Pandora's Pacify and Incite Actions are:

A) Not Spells.

B) Are Wp->Wp Duels between her and her target. So, if she wins in those, she can activate Fading Memories.

[nilus]

one point on this not stated yet is that a lot of Ortegas have stubborn, giving +2 Wp on defence - this crew seems to have the best tools for taking her down?

Things of note here

1) Perdita does not have stubborn, which only comes into play because Pandora strips her immune to influence ability. So be careful with her around Pandy

2) The rest of the Ortegas do okay. A first turn Papa Loco bomb right into the center of the Pandy/sorrow group hug will ruin the strategy above very quickly.

3) Lady Justice's see the unseen spell is also dynamite against Pandora. I almost think that Lady J running with some Ortegas and Death Marshals would work really well.

[Atticus]

I'm afraid a local Pandora player may try this strategy at our tourney this weekend. Any suggestions for a Resurrectionist player to guard against it? I'm planning on running either Seamus or Nicodem in the event, both have WP7 which is good, it will at least be an even match. I'm leaning towards taking Nicodem if facing Pandora, because he has a spell with blast damage, so I can avoid the WP duel if Pandora has any models linked to her. But I have to be able to survive the possible alpha strike.

Do you think it's possible to arrange your crew such that Pandora and 7 sorrows can't get within 3" of your Master? I think so, but it might require setting up on the back line and 28" of potential movement is huge.

Any other ideas?

[Lalochezia]

I think I've heard it said in here that if Pandora can't drag her sorrows around off of her 4" push, it would make her crap, so the ultimate way to fix the problem is to deny the sorrow's ability to link to each other.

I disagree with this.

If it is ruled that a linked model does not move on a push (which is how we all played before the errata) Pandora will be fine.

She can link 3 sorrows at the beginning of the game, then pacify all three moving 12". Then she can walk 3". As soon as she walks, all linked sorrows will be pushed into base to base with her because she made a move action, and link isn't broken until the closing phase. So, Pandora moves a total of 15" with three linked sorrows in base contact and still has 1 general AP, 1 casting expert AP, and she can still pacify...just like she did before the errata.

Also, since a linked model is "pushed" into base to base when the model it is linked to is moved, sorrows linked to other sorrows will not move into base to base when Pandora moves effectively making their link useless, without explicitly ruling it so.

[Lalochezia]

I'm afraid a local Pandora player may try this strategy at our tourney this weekend. Any suggestions for a Resurrectionist player to guard against it? I'm planning on running either Seamus or Nicodem in the event, both have WP7 which is good, it will at least be an even match. I'm leaning towards taking Nicodem if facing Pandora, because he has a spell with blast damage, so I can avoid the WP duel if Pandora has any models linked to her. But I have to be able to survive the possible alpha strike.

Do you think it's possible to arrange your crew such that Pandora and 7 sorrows can't get within 3" of your Master? I think so, but it might require setting up on the back line and 28" of potential movement is huge.

Any other ideas?

Deploy at the back of your board edge out of range. (this is very possible with most every deployment type, particularly if you deploy at a slight angle from them)

Run Seamus with at least one rotten belle (duh) and a bunch of canine remains. Activate Seamus and use trail of fear. (-2 Wp to all within 12") Activate the canine remains so that when Pandora runs up to you, you still have the belle to activate. Use the belle to lure the one sorrow actually linked to Pandora out of base to base. The link will end in the closing phase.

Hope for initiative next turn. Burn a stone if need be. Activate Seamus first, lower Pandora's Wp by 2, and cap her with your .50 cal. and finish her off with live for pain. She'll have no linked sorrows to sluff off to.

Now, he may have linked 3 sorrows to pandora. But the crew building math adds up that you could have 3 belles waiting to activate if the rest of your crew was canine remains.

Now, Pandora (playing like this) is the only list you could possibly beat with this crap, so don't take it unless you have a side board of some sort...or you really hate this guy.

Edit: Keep in mind, I thought this up in about two minutes. So, there may be holes. You were warned.

[Atticus]

Trail of Fear and the WP7 is the main reason I was considering Seamus. My concern was the Pandora player using 6 or 7 Sorrows to move within 3" of either Caster, then using essentially three AP to cast me to death, taking 6 or 7 wounds for each WP duel lost. If the Doppleganger is included, he can win initiative and pull of the first turn kill.

I'm not as worried if I can avoid the first turn kill. I can't have enough Belles to lure that many Sorrows away and still hope to field a competitive list. I could build my sideboard that way, but I would have to limit myself to Seamus only, since I run a slightly different list with Nicodem.

Seamus still has to win a WP duel to shoot Pandora and if he loses she moves out of range. For this reason I like Nicodem with the blast damage spell. I could put a Crooked Man in though, which might have some uses.

Thanks.

[Atticus]

Use the belle to lure the one sorrow actually linked to Pandora out of base to base. The link will end in the closing phase.

I need to read more carefully. That is a good point that I overlooked. He can't put all 7 around Pandora, so only one is linked to her (only one can link?) and the rest are linked to each other daisy-chained? So if the first turn kill doesn't go off, I can break her link by pulling only one Sorrow away, then hope to go first.

[Lalochezia]

Trail of Fear and the WP7 is the main reason I was considering Seamus. My concern was the Pandora player using 6 or 7 Sorrows to move within 3" of either Caster, then using essentially three AP to cast me to death, taking 6 or 7 wounds for each WP duel lost. If the Doppleganger is included, he can win initiative and pull of the first turn kill.

I'm not as worried if I can avoid the first turn kill. I can't have enough Belles to lure that many Sorrows away and still hope to field a competitive list. I could build my sideboard that way, but I would have to limit myself to Seamus only, since I run a slightly different list with Nicodem.

Seamus still has to win a WP duel to shoot Pandora and if he loses she moves out of range. For this reason I like Nicodem with the blast damage spell. I could put a Crooked Man in though, which might have some uses.

Thanks.

You can deploy out of range of the first turn kill. MAXIMUM range is 31" (which I find doubtful). The board is 36". The only deployment type where he can possibly be in range if you don't want him to be is standard. But if there is some terrain between you and him he has to go around (or you deploy at a slight angle) he will be out of range.

As for not being able to lure that many sorrows...think about it. Pandora can't link that many sorrows. Only six models fit in base to base, and then she couldn't move. Max she can have and still move is three. So, what is he going to do? Link them in a chain like everyone was talking about. And if you lure the FIRST sorrow in the chain...what would happen to the rest?

With the sorrows out of base to base, you actually wouldn't even need initiative second turn as he would have to move his sorrow chain back up before doing anything. (it's actually best you lose initiative first turn as your belles are essentially waiting to see what he'll do)

With the -2 from Seamus you are comparing his Wp 7 to her 5, and he does more damage than Nico all in one hit. Plus he can companion the belles to do it all at once, if need be.

[Lalochezia]

I need to read more carefully. That is a good point that I overlooked. He can't put all 7 around Pandora, so only one is linked to her (only one can link?) and the rest are linked to each other daisy-chained? So if the first turn kill doesn't go off, I can break her link by pulling only one Sorrow away, then hope to go first.

Now you're thinking!

Although you may need three.

Also, the -2 Wp from Seamus makes the sorrows easier to lure.

[TheViking]

Geez I like how me being a guinea pig and gettin' a beat down has lead to all this discussion. Haha glad I could be of "help" to all of you guys.

[Omadon]

Lalo - you're presenting these oppinions as if they're axiomatic. The Panda player Will do this, and so forth. Why wouldn't you link to three as panda? What on earth would possess you not to? Pulling sorrows off her is good though - but not quite the trumpcard that you claim it to be.

On a sidenote, I believe that Seamus has the most tools to deal with her. -2WP is horrible for her. The ability to easily out-number her with dogs so that Seamus can go last is good too. Sorrows don't have a great deal of DF, so you can one-shot them with his totem, and the more you kill, the better. Once she loses enough sorrows that she can't instagib seamus, then you should be alright. Don't waste stones on anything that isnt defending against her/getting a gun shot through for love nor money though. You need those.

Also - consider, she's by no means immune to WP duels herself, terrifying 14 with - WP is still needing a 9, which late in a turn might not be possible, and it's even harder for the sorrows - ramming Seamus into the middle with an AoE4 Terrifying14 should do alot to ruin her. Or at the very least strip her of her sorrows.

EDIT: On a sidenote, I'd love to see how Panda would manage if she took a hit from a *Hanged ^^

FURTHER EDIT: The maximum range of Panda is far, far greater than that. You people really don't read her spells do you? :P (Although it is kinda risky, but in situations where people are trying specifically to hide from you, then I'd say it was worth it)

FURTHER, FURTHER EDIT: Thankyou atticus :P

[Atticus]

Why wouldn't you link to three as panda? What on earth would possess you not to?

That's what I was thinking that more than one Sorrow would be linked to Pandora. Although if the Pandora player is playing a lot of Sorrows on her there will be some daisy chaining.


EDIT: On a sidenote, I'd love to see how Panda would manage if she took a hit from a haunted ^^

Do you mean the "Hanged"? I think they could be rough on Pandora, but they are expensive at 8 stones.


FURTHER EDIT: The maximum range of Panda is far, far greater than that. You people really don't read her spells do you? :P (Although it is kinda risky, but in situations where people are trying specifically to hide from you, then I'd say it was worth it)

I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at here. Maximum range of Pandora is greater than what, 28"? I think her ability causes a wound loss within 12" if WP duel failed. But losing one wound is manageable, it's the Sorrows causing that to be multiple wounds that is the real problem and they have to be within 3" of the target I believe. So that may be avoidable. It will be tough, but I think it can be done.

[heckler]

i'm pretty sure the link rule says a model may only have one model linked to it. i dont know where this link 3 thing came from.

just make it so a linked model loses the link when something links to it and all is fixed really. then panda drags around one sorrow and it's not a huge deal.

as far as deploying against it goes, it's rough. it is likely the panda player could train right up to the screening stuff, cause a wp check, kill it and move beyond it. the first turn doesn't matter either. when i did this, i actually opted to go 2nd so i just activated all my stuff after his. this allowed me to go about my business unhindered. the doppleganger would really be there to ensure initiative for the 2nd turn if the first did not go well.

the ortegas would not be a bad matchup. perdita's wp is still 7 so she is equal, the rest of them tend to be 8 in defensive duels and have quite a bit of killing potential for when they actually break through. also they can companion each other making them able to all out strike when necessary. i could see nino with a decent hand doing pandora in.

a peacebringer can do 8 damage from perdita. 5 for severe, and up to 3 rams if you soulstone and cheat the rams in.

[Atticus]

i'm pretty sure the link rule says a model may only have one model linked to it. i dont know where this link 3 thing came from.

No, Link says this model may only Link to one model. It does not prohibit a model from having multiple models linked to it. At least that is my understanding of the rule.

[Lalochezia]

Lalo - you're presenting these oppinions as if they're axiomatic. The Panda player Will do this, and so forth. Why wouldn't you link to three as panda? What on earth would possess you not to? Pulling sorrows off her is good though - but not quite the trumpcard that you claim it to be.

On a sidenote, I believe that Seamus has the most tools to deal with her. -2WP is horrible for her. The ability to easily out-number her with dogs so that Seamus can go last is good too. Sorrows don't have a great deal of DF, so you can one-shot them with his totem, and the more you kill, the better. Once she loses enough sorrows that she can't instagib seamus, then you should be alright. Don't waste stones on anything that isnt defending against her/getting a gun shot through for love nor money though. You need those.

Also - consider, she's by no means immune to WP duels herself, terrifying 14 with - WP is still needing a 9, which late in a turn might not be possible, and it's even harder for the sorrows - ramming Seamus into the middle with an AoE4 Terrifying14 should do alot to ruin her. Or at the very least strip her of her sorrows.

EDIT: On a sidenote, I'd love to see how Panda would manage if she took a hit from a haunted ^^

FURTHER EDIT: The maximum range of Panda is far, far greater than that. You people really don't read her spells do you? :P (Although it is kinda risky, but in situations where people are trying specifically to hide from you, then I'd say it was worth it)

We are working under the assumption the Pandora player is going for the turn one kill, as outlined in the first post in this thread. Sure, you can play Pandora differently, but not and still get the turn 1 kill, which is what he was worried about. And I mentioned that you can bring three belles, to pull three sorrows off of her and even manage to activate them last. So, her linking three sorrows is really no problem at all. Considering Seamus's trail of fear and the sorrow's Wp, it is very unlikely that any of the sorrows will resist the spell.

Also, if he shoots Pandora 28" up the board into an entire crew with no protection or back up except a bunch of sorrows which get lured away from Pandora before she gets completely surrounded by dogs/shotby Seamus/what have you, yeah, I'd say luring the sorrows off of her is game over.

And the maximum range of the turn one kill isn't determined by her spells, it's determined by the sorrow's emotional stress, which is onlt 3". Sure, Pandora can mess things up on her own, but for the one shot absolute maximum range is 31"...and I really doubt even that is possible. (especially since most of the sorrows will be lined up, causing those in back to be out of range)

[Omadon]

if thats the general concensus, I need to bring my panda list to more tournaments ^^

However, yeah - I do think belles present alot of issues for her. As the Panda player though my plan would be to neutralize the only model with use soulstones as quickly as possible, killing them aside - I'd hope to at least hit him with a mental anguish. On a sidenote - what do you plan to kill her with? Because if you plan to use trail of fear to lower the WP for the sorrows so that the belles have an easier time, that means his flintlock won't be pointed at panda. Just means that one of the sorrows that you don't have a line on with the belles gets insta-gibbed.

[Atticus]

On a sidenote - what do you plan to kill her with? Because if you plan to use trail of fear to lower the WP for the sorrows so that the belles have an easier time, that means his flintlock won't be pointed at panda. Just means that one of the sorrows that you don't have a line on with the belles gets insta-gibbed.

I guess you are talking about this all happening in one turn, so if Seamus activates first to use Trail of Fear he won't be able to shoot Pandora because the Sorrows will still be in place. A couple of thoughts on that: (1) You are correct, I would activate Seamus last and just let the Belles try to Lure the Sorrows away, with an CA 8 for Lure, they should be successful against the Sorrows. I would save Trail of Fear to make sure I can shoot Pandora and not fail having her run away. (2) My expected list against Pandora will include a Copycat Killer and a Convict Gunslinger with the three Belles or possibly a Crooked Man in place of a Belle. This should allow for plenty of shooting at Pandora and the Sorrows. (3) Taking out the Sorrows is priority one anyway, so even if Pandora sloughs off the damage to Sorrows killing them, that's great. She's not nearly as scary without Sorrows backing her up.

Pandora is scary, but I have an idea of how to deal with her if I get the chance. My concern is the alpha strike that another thread referenced, with the Doppleganger she can almost guarantee that she gets to go first, with 7 linked Sorrows using Incite/Pacify multiple times she can move 28" and be within range to kill Seamus before I even get a chance to activate a model. My point with this thread was "what can I do to guard against that?" Careful deployment seems to be the only answer. The rest falls into the general "fighting Pandora" subject.

[Lalochezia]

I think activating Seamus last first turn is a mistake. You need to activate the belles last to get those sorrows off of Pandora. Take her out the next turn. Think about it, if her sorrows aren't near, she still can't insta kill, which is obviously her whole plan if she's running that list, so even with initiative the next turn she's just going to move her sorrows back up...which can then be lured away again. Or (and this is what I would do) a canine remains could wonder up to her and all of a sudden all those ranged spells she has can only target it.

Also keep in mind, this whole thing hinges on activating your belles AFTER she shoots up the board, so you need enough models to make that happen.

[Omadon]

Then you have another problem - miss her once, and she fading memorys into one of the sorrows you moved. Then she has a barrier. You -need- to save Seamus to try and pressure her. Praying to get the first initiative when you're looking at a doppleganger is a baadd idea. There is no reason whatsoever to use Seamus before pandora - If you save him til last, not only do you get a shot at her, you also get the chance at engaging her, going first, and then dropping a terrifying 14 aura on her sorrows. 6WP-8CA is fine if you're trying to lure stuff, they need to beat you by three on all of them, and if you can stick them all seperate in his terrifying range, with 3 WP and terrifying 14, then she isn't getting them back :P

However, I do agree on the part where you need to activate the belles after her - so taking seamus, a few belles and then allloott of dogs/the totem seems the best way to achieve that.

[Joona]

Or (and this is what I would do) a canine remains could wonder up to her and all of a sudden all those ranged spells she has can only target it.
None of her spells have the ranged attack symbol so no luck there.

[Lalochezia]

None of her spells have the ranged attack symbol so no luck there.

Ranged spells without the ranged attack symbol can be used while in melee, but must be used on the model(s) you are in melee with. So, if she's swarmed by canine remains, good luck with that.

[Lalochezia]

Then you have another problem - miss her once, and she fading memorys into one of the sorrows you moved. Then she has a barrier. You -need- to save Seamus to try and pressure her. Praying to get the first initiative when you're looking at a doppleganger is a baadd idea. There is no reason whatsoever to use Seamus before pandora - If you save him til last, not only do you get a shot at her, you also get the chance at engaging her, going first, and then dropping a terrifying 14 aura on her sorrows. 6WP-8CA is fine if you're trying to lure stuff, they need to beat you by three on all of them, and if you can stick them all seperate in his terrifying range, with 3 WP and terrifying 14, then she isn't getting them back :P

However, I do agree on the part where you need to activate the belles after her - so taking seamus, a few belles and then allloott of dogs/the totem seems the best way to achieve that.

The reason to use seamus before Pandora is that if you save him til last, you won't be able to activate the belles after pandora moves up, because you simply won't have enough models. Of course, this depends on his list, if he is running a doppleganger then, yeah, you can save him til last, but it's situational.

The terrifying 14 aura is great but, if the sorrows are in range of it, odds are sseamus is in range of all of their emotional stress. You don't test for terrifying until the model activates. First turn, all the sorrows already activated. And second turn the pandora player will just activate pandora first and one shot you then.

You NEED to lure the sorrows away from her. It's the whole point. And if the sorrows are lured off of her, she'll have to spend her first activation bringing them back, making intitiative less important, especially since you can just lure them away again.

[Joona]

Ranged spells without the ranged attack symbol can be used while in melee, but must be used on the model(s) you are in melee with. So, if she's swarmed by canine remains, good luck with that.
No where does it say that they can be used only on models you are in melee with.

FAQ says: "Ranged and melee attack spells are those spells that have a ranged (:ranged) or melee (:melee) icon in their Range. These spells follow the rules for that type of attack and receive any bonuses or penalties associated with that type of attack (i.e. a model casting a spell with the :ranged icon that targets a model in soft cover would receive a :-fate on the Attack Flip). Spells without ranged or melee icons ignore any restrictions or benefits that would apply to those types of attacks (i.e. the spell above cast without the :ranged icon would not suffer the soft cover penalty) (p.62)."

Also Weird Sketch has confirmed this earlier, for example here (http://www.wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=8912). (But I have to admit, you had me doubting it there for a while and I wanted to be sure).

[Lalochezia]

No where does it say that they can be used only on models you are in melee with.

FAQ says: "Ranged and melee attack spells are those spells that have a ranged (:ranged) or melee (:melee) icon in their Range. These spells follow the rules for that type of attack and receive any bonuses or penalties associated with that type of attack (i.e. a model casting a spell with the :ranged icon that targets a model in soft cover would receive a :-fate on the Attack Flip). Spells without ranged or melee icons ignore any restrictions or benefits that would apply to those types of attacks (i.e. the spell above cast without the :ranged icon would not suffer the soft cover penalty) (p.62)."

Also Weird Sketch has confirmed this earlier, for example here (http://www.wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=8912). (But I have to admit, you had me doubting it there for a while and I wanted to be sure).

"Models may cast ranged spells against enemy models that they are in melee with." Pg. 62

This implies that if they are in melee, they may not cast it on a model they are not in melee with.

Also, in the initial post of the thread you linked, if you read the opening post's third question carefully, you'll notice the OP never mentions that there is a model in melee with the caster.

Later in the thread someone specifically asks sketch if, when a model with a ranged attack is in melee, it can target a model it is not in melee with. And this was his answer:

http://www.wyrd-games.net/forum/showpost.php?p=99416&postcount=11

Keep in mind this was before the errata and Sonnia's flame burst did not have a ranged icon.

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

"Models may cast ranged spells against enemy models that they are in melee with." Pg. 62

This implies that if they are in melee, they may not cast it on a model they are not in melee with.
That implies nothing of the sort.

You're also forgetting from the errata:

Spell Basics (p.62)
Delete “ranged” in the last sentence of second paragraph.

Re-written that last sentence you're quoting is:
"Models may cast spells against enemy models that they are in melee with."

Which means that models may cast spells. Period. Including models they are in melee with. As long as those spells being cast follow the rules for such spells. (No :ranged spells in melee, etc.)

[Ropetus]

Later in the thread someone specifically asks sketch if, when a model with a ranged attack is in melee, it can target a model it is not in melee with. And this was his answer:

http://www.wyrd-games.net/forum/showpost.php?p=99416&postcount=11

Keep in mind this was before the errata and Sonnia's flame burst did not have a ranged icon.

Uh, doesn't he say exactly the opposite?


Ranged spells without the :maliranged icon can be cast out of melee, in melee etc. If they do have that icon and the model is in melee it cannot cast those spells.

The spell can be cast while the model is in melee against a model not in melee with it. The text in the rulebook is just a reminder that such spells can be cast in melee as well.

-Ropetus

[Lalochezia]

That implies nothing of the sort.

You're also forgetting from the errata:


Re-written that last sentence you're quoting is:
"Models may cast spells against enemy models that they are in melee with."

Which means that models may cast spells. Period. Including models they are in melee with. As long as those spells being cast follow the rules for such spells. (No :ranged spells in melee, etc.)

I see.


Uh, doesn't he say exactly the opposite?



The spell can be cast while the model is in melee against a model not in melee with it. The text in the rulebook is just a reminder that such spells can be cast in melee as well.

-Ropetus

Question: " In other words, if Sonnia is in melee, could she cast Flame Burst at a target 10" away?"

Answer: "No."

Keeping in mind that Sonnia didn't have the ranged icon at the time, you have to admit...that's a little misleading.:confused:

Alright, swarming her with dogs won't work.

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

stuff
It's OK. We still like you. You're our fuzzy little monkey! Oh yes you are! *rubs head*

[Lalochezia]

It's OK. We still like you. You're our fuzzy little monkey! Oh yes you are! *rubs head*

And now the humiliation begins.:puppy:

[Atticus]

Re-written that last sentence you're quoting is:
"Models may cast spells against enemy models that they are in melee with."

Which means that models may cast spells. Period. Including models they are in melee with. As long as those spells being cast follow the rules for such spells. (No :ranged spells in melee, etc.)

Okay the parenthetical confused me, so just to make sure I understand the rule, is this correct?


A model in melee may cast any spell against a model it is in melee with, including :ranged spells.
A model in melee may cast spells without :ranged against models NOT in melee with it.
Does that sum up these rules?

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

Okay the parenthetical confused me, so just to make sure I understand the rule, is this correct?

A model in melee may cast any spell against a model it is in melee with, including :ranged spells.
No.
Not including :ranged spells. A model cannot perform any :ranged type of attacks whlie engaged in melee. Spells or otherwise.

A model in melee may cast spells without :ranged against models NOT in melee with it.
This is correct.

[nilus]

It's OK. We still like you. You're our fuzzy little monkey! Oh yes you are! *rubs head*

Didn't anyone ever tell you its not appropriate to rub your monkey in public.

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

Didn't anyone ever tell you its not appropriate to rub your monkey in public.
He's our monkey. We'll rub him where we like!

Wait...

[Atticus]

No.
Not including :ranged spells. A model cannot perform any :ranged type of attacks whlie engaged in melee. Spells or otherwise.

This is correct.

Thanks for clearing that up.

[Lalochezia]

:cries: